>And that is what GW has stated tonight in his speech, that he believes that the middle east can be democratized; and that the US will stay as long as it takes to do it.
No, he sounded like he believes that the ME can be democratized, and that toppling Saddam will begin a magical "Domino Effect" of democritization in the ME.
>The liberals have accused GW of arrogance for believing that democracy can be installed in an arab nation. I think it is arrogance of the French and Germans, and liberals, to think they are so superior intellectually, that only they could understand and apply democratic principles.
Well, let's see here- what did it take to turn France and Germany into a democracy? It took about, what, a revolution and 40 years of civil war and repeated regime change in France? Do the words Robespierre, Reign of Terror, and Napoleon mean anything to you? Dresden was razed to bring democracy there.
>Look at Turkey, a 98% muslim nation. They have a basic democracy, and it is working. Turkey already has three times the GDP/person as Iraq, and Turkey has done it without oil.
Turkey, for one, had a secularist revolution in the '20s, though they're changing over to an Islamist society as we speak. They only manage to remain a "democracy" because they oppress all of their minority groups, such as the Armenians and the Kurds. They've killed MILLIONS of Armenians and at the very least tens of thousands of Kurds.
>I agree with you entirely. In fact, that is what I have been stating for the last 6 months, but Al and Ted accuse me of arrogance, to think it will work. I think it will, Gw believes it, the conservatives believe it. Can we convince the arabs to give us enough time, to make it work here, is the question.
No, the question is whether or not we are willing to earmark enough troops and money for a long enough period of time to make it work. My doubts on this are increasing, and as they do, my feelings towards the upcoming war are becoming more and more ambivalent.
Just a question- Dave appears to think that the Iraqis can democratize on their own. If President Bush were to come out today and show a roadmap which shows Saddam defeated in 2003 and the U.S. out of Iraq by '04 under the reasoning that the Iraqis can "democratize themselves", would you be in favor of the war?
>If the Turks, Sunni's and Shiites, see that by working together, they can all profit, they will democratize. We will see.
But they're not going to do it on their own. We're going to have to restrain them from fighting and force them to work together until they see the benefits.
-Z |
