Dear Gracious Andretti,
You've heard the fable of the blind men and the elephant. One decided it was like a tree, another said it was like rope, etc. None surveyed the whole animal before making up his mind. The Bible is like that elephant, we must study it all, starting at the beginning.
Isa 34:9&10 is similar to Rev 14 decreeing destruction:
"the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever; from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it."
The land of Esau is desolate and empty even today, but no fires burn there. Smoke is the evidence of fire, and Edom's destruction and remembered example of God's judgement are still in evidence in God's Book. The presence of birds and animals in the prophecy tell us that the Edom here described is the literal land.
Andretti: How do you explain the fires of Edom being extinguished when Isaiah said the fire would not be quenched?
Isaiah 66:22-24: "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith Jehovah, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. And they shall go forth, and look upon the dead bodies of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
Jehovah's law required burial of the dead before night. One who touched a dead body was unclean for 7 days. Is it consistent to expect unburied billions to cover the New Earth to remind us of their iniquity? Would you enjoy that? Would these uncorrupting eternal carcasses somehow honor God? It simply means on sabbaths we'll recall their just punishment: destruction. Obadiah 16 says of the wicked: "They shall be as tho they had not been." Isaiah 34 explains Isaiah 66, Mark 9 and Revelation 14.
GOD and FIRE: "Your God is a consuming fire" Deut 4:24
2 K 6:17 The mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire
Ezk 1:4 Out of the midst of the fire came 4 living creatures
Eze 21&2 Fire of my wrath, fire of my wrath, fire of my wrath
Dan 7:9 His throne was firey flames, and wheels thereof burning fire
Lu 3:16 He shall baptize you with Holy Spirit and in fire.
Lu 3:17 The chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
Acts 2:3 Tongues like as of fire; and it sat upon each one of them
Mat 25:41 Depart into the eternal fire prepared for the devil & his angels.
Which of these are literal, Andretti?
The everlasting fire of M25 is the "Lake of Fire" in Rev 20. Seven things are thrown into it: The Wild Beast & False Prophet; Death & Hell; Devil & Angels, Wicked humans. Twice it is called "the second death." Neither death nor hades [hell KJV] can be tortured. Most scholars agree the Beast & Prophet are political and organizational structures; untorturable.
So we're left with Devil, Angels, Wicked to be tormented in the Second Death [provided, of course that scriptures teach they somehow survive death} Revelation 20:10: "The devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented [Basanizo= to try, test, torment] day and night for ever and ever."
2 Chapters before in 18:9-10 we have a parallel event, the destruction of Babylon the Great: "The kings shall bewail her when they shall see the smoke of her burning, standing afar off for the fear of her torment." [basanismos= a trial, testing, torment] Now read 18:21: "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found NO MORE AT ALL."
Babylon the Great shall be no more at all Rev 18:21
Death shall be destroyed 1 Cor 15:26 Isaiah 25:8
The wicked shall be as though they had not been Obadiah 16
Human kingdoms shall be replaced by Christ's kingdom Daniel 2:44
When Sheol/Hades is emptied it shall be no more
Satan's head bruise indicates death: Genesis 3:15 Ro 16:20
CONCLUSION: The fire prepared for the Devil is annihilation.
The following can be verified in concordances. I'll not use the NWT, a disadvantage because its the only English version faithful to the original. Soul, Sheol, Spirit, Gehenna, Tartarus are used as they occured in the Hebrew & Greek text without alteration. To get the same information without NWT you have to use a concordance:
Both humans and animals are souls.
Nephesh is applied 4 times to beasts in Gen. 1, before Adam at 2:7
Adam became a living soul, he didn't get a soul.
Adam was created from dust.
The Nephesh/Psuche is repeatedly said to die Ezek 18:4,20 Rev 16:3
The soul is never called immortal, deathless, undying, eternal
The wages of sin are death. "To dust you shall return."
Death is sleep in OT, for Lazarus Jn 11, some of the 500, 1 Cor 15:6
Sheol/Hades is the place of the dead: the grave, silence
The hope of the dead is resurrection: Isa 26:19 Acts 24:15
Eternal destruction is punishment for the the wicked 2 Thess 1:9
Gehenna/Lake of Fire are symbols of this destruction.
The story presented in God's Word is:
Adam, created from dust, had a conditional right to eternal life
Adam lost his liferight, we're lost.
Satan challenged Jehovah over men: Job 1&2, Rev 12:10.
Satan is God of this world. 2 Cor 4:4. Jah permits him to try us.
Christ died to save lost mankind, He is the only door to salvation
Jesus will restore a New Earth under his New Heavens
He opened a new covenant at the last supper, for a kingdom.
His brothers shall share his rule as Kings over earth. 1 Thess 4:16 Rev 5:10
Earth shall be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters cover the sea Hab 2:14
The Jews are accused of many sins, but never were they blamed for corrupting the Word of God by changing it, by contamination. That sin has been left for our modern age. Example: the NIV uses 154 words to translate Nephesh: life 129, soul 105, creatures, body, greed, earnest, dying, die, craving, corpse, thing, throats, thirst, slaves, relish, perfume, etc. KJV uses 36 words. NWT 1.
To add to the confusion KJV translates 1 word 3 ways and 3 words 1 way. Try that with ingredients in a cook book. It renders Sheol: Hell 31, Grave 31, Pit 3
In the Greek KJV translates Hades 10, Gehenna 11, Tartarus 1, all as Hell.
KJV is the work of the Anglican Church, which 3 years ago repudiated the doctrine of eternal torment. Which time were they right, Andretti?
Said U S Catholic Magazine quoting Methodist clergyman Robert Short: "There are so many strong biblical, doctrinal and logical arguments against the existence of a literal hell that this question naturally arises: Why do the churches teach it and why do people often believe it ... The churches tend to believe that fear, rather than love, conquers all." April 1980 37-40
"There is no fear in love, perfect love casts out fear" 1 John
I'll be back with more next week, Andretti. Am going to Dell convention in Austin.
May Jehovah watch over you.
Sincerely, Agape!
Don |
