ED-I wrote a response to you that was lost when the computer hung up on me. It was rather lengthy and detailed. Because I do not want to invest that amount of time again, you will have to forgive me for the brevity of this response.
First, I will post the "offending post" you allude to.
To: Shawn Murphy
From: Andrew Vance
Mar 9 1997 2:52PM EST
Reply #85 of 100
I am considering this thread Switzerland (neutral territory). ED PAKSTAS has come onto my radar of late with a stock HTRN (Hall Train) on the Canadian exchange. By his own admission he holds more than 5% of the outstanding float for this stock. More than 200K shares with a public float of 4 million. Total shares is 12 million.
Just thought you might like to know since he just posted to your thread. You might want to answer his post or make a comment for the community there. I just do not think you should blow off this post. Whatever comments or research you do, your response will be whatever it is. My comment was just FYI and should not influence what you do.
Andrew
====================================
1. Nothing derogatory was stated in this message to Shawn.
2. Considering you posted to the STOCK SWAP thread with little information, I did some basic DD on my own. Actually, even you state that people should do their own research.
3. Using you name as the search vehicle, I was able to find the HTRN thread and read everything there. That was part of my DD but by no means was that the complete research.
4. You posted to "the picks" thread which was evident from my DD. Therefore, you were posting to Shawn Murphy.
5. Since you posted to Shawn Murphy, I found it more of a courtesy to share with Shawn some of the DD I had done.
6. Shawn weighs a great deal of things in his investment strategy, some of which he share and some that he does not. The number of shares you beneficial own, I beleived to be pertinent information to share with Shawn since you neglected to put that in your post to "the picks" and "Stock Swap".
7. Nothing derogatory was said about you and nothing was said behind your back.
8. My last statement says it all and in point of fact, I asked Shawn to respond to you. This I view as a positive help to you.
9. I did not respond to you because your post on the Stock Swap was not consistent with the guidelines we try to adhere to: Facts, data, information, and background info devoid of hype, scamming, spamming, etal. While your post may not have been a deliberate hype, spam or attempt to scam, its very nature did not fit the desired elements we would like to see in order to intelligently discuss a stock.
10. A quick look at the beginning of the Thread and you will clearly see what the purpose of the thread is.
=======================================
Next, I would like to discuss your reply to me, in sections:
Andrew,
Being fairly new to the computer world and the SI, if I have done something wrong or offended you by attempting to make people aware of what I firmly believe to be a "real company" by virtue of my own DD and my own investment, please advise me personally instead of talking about me behind my back.
You have not offended me at all. At most you disappointed me because you chose not to repsect the guidelines set up on the STOCK SWAP thread that was started. This thread was started due to issues on other threads and other on line services. There was a desire to create a thread where we would ask for certain guidelines to be followed. We are a community of investros and all are welcome. All that is asked is that the following guidelines be followed as much as possible.
Started By: Andrew Vance
Date: Feb 11 1997 11:30PM EST
This thread is being started to provide an open forum for all
persons to participate in ongoing discussions concerning stocks of
interest and subjects of interest relative to investments.
It is a thread that is run by no one and owned by no one. It is
also a thread where we hope no bickering will occur and everyone's
opinion will be respected. It is hoped that this forum will provide a
vehicle for novices to ask questions and for the experienced trader to
get needed support for pending investments. No one should feel discouraged from participating on this thread.
Finally, it is hoped that this thread will provide information,
data, references, and factual accounts of corporate financials such
that sound decisions can be made. It is also the wish of the creator
of this thread that no spamming or hyping of stocks occur here and
should any differences of opinion arise between participants, these
differences are settled away from this thread.
If I am still ignorant of the ethics involved on the SI, please
advise me personally instead of talking about me behind my back.
There is no published code of ethics for SI and it is not my place to establish a code of ethics for the Stock Swap thread. Instead, a published set of guidelines were listed in the opening paragraphs that we hoped would set a standard for the Stock Swap thread. Since nothing derogatory was said about you, I do not believe anything was said behind your back. Again, I was providing information to someone you posted to and gave him the benefit of some of the research I had done. Neither Shawn nor I can answer each post sent to us nor can we do all the DD and research on every company mentioned. This was a done as a courtesy and if Shawn wants to reciporcate, it is his decision. IF I have anything to say to you in a less than flaterring way, I will email you since it is in poor taste to resolve issues or conflicts on an open thread.
Can you please advise me if I should disclose my current
position in all my holdings, how much I have paid for them, etc,etc,.
and do I have to disclose my positions everytime I voice an opinion or
let everyone know there is a news release coming out into the public
forum.
No, you are not required to disclose your position in all your holdings and what you paid for them. And no, you do not have to disclosed your position everytime you voice an opinion or let anyone know a news release is coming. However, since your holding are of such great magnitude relative to the float and the share volume traded, it would have been appropriate for you to make that known on the STOCK SWAP thread. Considering the shares outstanding, share float, shares you own, the daily trading volume of HTRN, and the disclosure of your holding on the HTRN thread, you stand to gain/lose significantly based on the performance of the stock. It may not be an issue on any other thread you post to but as a reader of the STOCK SWAP thread, you must be fully aware that we do state when we have a position in a stock that we talk about, especially when there are considerable amounts of shares or dollars at stake. This is something that we do routinely that is not done elsewhere. This is also a uniques attribute of the Stock Swap thread. As far as voicing an opinion, the following was the initial post of yours.
To: Andrew Vance (1834 )
From: ED PAKSTAS
Mar 9 1997 1:52AM EST
Reply #1841 of 2541
TO ALL:
Undervalued Canadian penny. If anyone is interested, click here.
techstocks.com
When I clicked, this is what I got
To: ED PAKSTAS (2 )
From: ED PAKSTAS
Feb 20 1997 11:46PM EST
Reply #3 of 67
TO ALL:
I guess we should stop jumping around in various threads and
supply all information we have, on this one, since its already here.
I have been following this stock for over two years now. Made a
lot of money on it when it got promoted on hype approx: 1 3/4 years
ago.
Anyway, my sources began talking about Hall Train around one month ago. Decided to do some DD last Monday Feb. 17/97.
Made an appointment with Hall Trains contact person: MATTEO (SAL)
BOSSIO. Attended at their plant located in the Third Line and Q.E.W.
area of Oakville. Had to see what was going on for myself. I (who is
not so easily impressed) was impressed.
Inside the plant (approx: 5200 sq. ft.) you would find a life
sized dinosaur (I was asked not to reveal the type) but I can
assure you that it takes up approx: 15-20% of the shop space. Across
the front of the shop is approx: 1000 square feet of office space containg some pretty sophisticated computer and camera eqipment (don't
even ask).
The company has approx: 8 - 12 (sometimes more, depending on
contracts) employees, half a dozen or so which are primarily involved
with (the almost completed) construction of the dinosaur.
Hall Train is entering phase II of a 5.5 million dollar contract
with MCA/UNIVERSAL studios out Disney World, Orlando, Florida. The
contract calls for 5 ROBOTIC DINOSAURS to be delivered to Fla. by
spring of /98.
Hall Train is developing the sectioned shell and the six year
guaranteed rubber like (realistic looking) skin of the animal while
SPAR AREOSPACE is devoloping and constructing the ROBOTICS.
The "spin off" business is going to be tremendous. Hundreds of
thousands of dollars worth of contracts are being discussed and
negotiated at this time.
The company has been surviving on existing contractual cash flows since August/96. There have been some small sharehoders loans given to
the company. Said shareholders have been repaid via the issuance of
stock options. Said options have been set at .40-.50 and expire in
late /97.
The company is REAL and in my opinion the share price is totally
undervalued.
They have a demonstration video of the the "computer animated
commercials" they have produced available upon request.
They do lack in corporate profiles and up to date financials will
be availabe soon. The company is presently in negotiations with a
Florida based company for additional financing. Said financing will be used for expansion and company development.
FOR ANY FURTHER INFORMATION CALL OR WRITE:
SAL BOSSIO (president)
Suite 200, 258 Adelaide Str. E.
Toronto, Ontario.
M5A 1N1 ph#: (416) 955-9007
This "NOT A HYPE DEAL" and I have been accumulating more stock for myself and my RRSP in the last few days..
"Free" quotes and chart info: canstock.com
When I know, so will you.
ed
Your initial post to the Stock Swap thread looked like a hype. (key word is LOOKED which does not mean it was). Upon going to the link, I saw some facts but also saw innuendo, "Don't even ask" and other phrases that lacked specifics. However, I read the entire post, did a little more research and separated facts form supposition within the post. However, you have to admit, that a cursory look at the original post and the comments you made on the link, could lead one to question some of the comments especially:
<The company has been surviving on existing contractual cash flows since August/96. There have been some small sharehoders loans given to
the company. Said shareholders have been repaid via the issuance of
stock options. Said options have been set at .40-.50 and expire in
late /97.>
<The "spin off" business is going to be tremendous. Hundreds of
thousands of dollars worth of contracts are being discussed and
negotiated at this time.>
<I was asked not to reveal the type>
When you couple this with the following posts:
techstocks.com
techstocks.com
techstocks.com
techstocks.com
techstocks.com
techstocks.com
techstocks.com
it sure looks as if someone new to SI is very well versed in posting to numerous threads with almost the same message. It also leads one to believe that an intentional/unintentional set of spamming and hyping was done.
From what I have seen on most threads nobody acknowledges their positions. I DID. So what's the problem?
By your insinuations you make me believe that I am doing something wrong.
There was no problem with what you did for the most part. It was just a slight breach of SOP on the Stock Swap thread to leave out what would be considered a very valuable piece of information given that it was mentioned elsewhere and you would benefit greatly should the stock run up in value. I say that now but when you read my message to Shawn, there should be no mention or insinuation of anything wrong on your part. Again, I asked Shawn to response to you, which should have been received as a positive by you and gave him some information that was not readily available from your post. Shawn does not confide all his investment strategies so one needs to postulate as to what might be of interest to him. Your share holdings are just that when you consider what you have at stake. It also might have helped sawy Shawn into answering your post.
Given the volume of shares that trade in this stock and now your published entry points, you must admit, it does look (key word is look) like neglecting to list this information for the participants on the Stock Swap to consider in their decision, might present a less than stellar perception for some individuals. Again, this is just related to the Stock Swap thread since I cannot speak for the other threads. As a matter of fact, you only have the opinion of one member of the Stock Swap community. If it was an oversight, no harm, no foul. But you must consider appearances and perceptions given your larger holdings.
Finally, it is not I that has said there is 4m shares in the float. The information that I have received from my sources is that the insiders own 7m shares and that there is 5+M in the public hands.
lf you feel that I didn't give proper disclosure,here, I'll give you the exact amount that I own and what I PAID for them:
100K bought in the .30-.35 range 1.5 years ago.
125K bought in the .06-.10 range over the last 1.5 months.
Is there a problem with averaging down?
CAN YOU SHOW ME WHERE YOU REVEAL ALL YOUR PERSONAL HOLDINGS WHEN YOU GIVE AN OPINION ON A PARTICULAR COMPANY.
I apologize for attributing the shares statements to you, that was a misinterpretation on my part. However, we do agree that there are 12 million shares of stock in this company. The 4 million share public float differs from your comment of 5+ million shares. I will assume that my number is off by 1 million shares, which makes your core holdings less than 5%. However, I will not retract my comment that your 200+K shares of stock, especially at your entry prices, reflect a significant amount of shares, given the public float and daily trading volumes. Your shares are significant in the trading of this stock.
As far as averaging down, as you must be aware as a reader of the Stock Swap thread, I am an advocate of averaging down on stocks that I beleive in. I am also in the minority when it comes to averaging down. As far as revealing all your holdings, no one asked for specifics on anyone's holdings but you will find that on the Stock Swap, we routinely mention when we get into or out of a stock or when we are considering something along those lines. If you research me, you will find that I have published my portfolio once and a great deal of the time, remind people that a stock I am invested in and am discussing, is a stock that I stand to benefit on with upward movement. When my holdings are significant I also bring forth that information. Others also do the same so I am not the only one.
The Stock Swap is a unique thread with unique people that we try to treat as a small investment community. We tend to get weird at times, we joke at times, we try to protect each other, and try to conduct ourselves with a great deal of integrity.
If you care to reply or have any questions, please bring it to my attention on the HTRN thread and I will do my best to accommodate you.
I will not send this reply to you on the HTRN thread for numerous reasons.
a. It has no place on that thread since it does not pertain to anything related to HTRN by way of fact, information, or data.
b. I will not post anything less than flaterring on the HTRN thread related to any of its participants especially when it has to deal with a personal issue. That would be a breach of my own personal ethics and thread etiquette. Furthermore, it would be silly to continue this beyond this point since you believe you offended me and that I insinuated bad things about you. Neither was the case when the message was written.
c. Your "issue" arose on this thread and the reply will be restricted to this thread only (even though you cc: me on the picks thread, I believe). It is your choice to copy it wherever you desire but I beleive it best that it stay here or continue by Email, if you desire.
d. You have obviously been alerted to this message by Joey Tilton who, for reasons beyond my comprehension" decided to act like a "juvenile tattletale" in hopes of inciting a riot where no riot exists. What was Joey's motive for doing this and what did Joey read into the message that gave Joey the impression that I was stating derogatory things about you.
IF I have any questions concerning HTRN, you can bet that I will go to the HTRN thread and put the questions to the forum there. I have nothing to ask yet and will have no problem going to them to ask questions.
Finally, to put to bed this insinuation/behind the back comments on your part, I offer the following message post:
To: regine (86 )
From: Andrew Vance
Mar 9 1997 7:36PM EST
Reply #87 of 100
HTETF is apparently the US Symbol for this company which is a
Canadian company. My comment to Shawn was more of a warning and not a
recommendation. There is a thread that you should go to as part of any
DD. Use serach engine below and put in HTRN. I am worried about what I
read and the dates of the posts. There is more here than meets the
eye. All I wanted Shawn to do is keep both eyes open since it is
appearing on "the picks" thread.
Andrew
No mention was made of your name or anything to do with you. This was related to HTRN specifically and should have raised your eyebrows more than the message to Shawn. I was worried with what I saw and still beleive there is more here than meets the eye. However, nothing derogatory was said and Regine/Shawn were told to do more research. I made my decision but did not share it. That is my perogative.
Now if you still beleive you were offended and things went on behind your back after reading this response, we can continue this on or off line, that is your perogative. IF you feel you have done no wrong, so be it. If you, after reading this response, you see something different or cannot view this from the different perspective, so be it.
However, your actions over nothing (to me at least, not necessarily to you) and your willingness to get incited over a post by Joey Tilton, who you may or may not know, gives me the perception (key word perception) that you may be harboring a slight bit of guilt over something, possibly something on the verge of spamming and hyping on a thread where we request such things do not take place. Joey Tilton never posted to your thread then all of a sudden sees fit to post the message below:
To: ED PAKSTAS (55 )
From: Joey Tilton
Mar 14 1997 12:42PM EST
Reply #56 of 67
Ed, Have you seen the posts by Andrew Vance on the thread "Shawn
Murphy's Bulls and Bears"? Any comments?
Joey
What was the purpose of this post to you in front of your peers on the HTRN thread? You must question those motives since you could have been contacted by email or through the "Bulls and Bears" thread where the supposed "offense" took place and it would have been kept a little more private. Why post it for to view and link to if there were not an ulterior motive on the part of Joey. Think about that for a moment or two. Poor judgement and class on Joey's part.
BTW-since Joey frequents this thread, I know that Joey will be reading this. Therefore, nothing is being said behind Joey's back. If Joey were not a reader of this thread, I would search for the logical place to forward this. However, as it is, I spent too much time on this response.
The name of the thread the offending message was posted to is called "...Bulls and Bears". So for the record, I choose HTRN as a Bear consistent with the stated purpose of the "Bulls and Bears" Thread. There should be no harm or foul here either.
Respectfully yours
Andrew Vance
PS You do not have to apologize for interrupting my "clique" because no cliques exists. No one has been chased off the Stock Swap thread and all particpants are welcome, especially those that enjoy a good time and try to follow the community guidelines. |
