>Who's notions [of civilisation]? There are many notions about civilization that represent all perspectives.<
Exactly my point, brees. There ain't no self-evident nothing. Nevertheless various cultures do have general similarities of view, such that their members do not shoot one another willy nilly. Of course there seem always some who do not share the general view of their culture, and they think themselves at liberty to shoot others willy nilly. No one can ultimately declare them wrong. The best one can do in such a circumstance is exercise might, and since might sets the actualized agenda, it is the most significant thing going. This Muslim "self-evident" hocus pocus you've been running on about ain't got a dang thing to do with it.
>You haven't heard pezz's tape on responsibility free relationships and the beautiful Earth tapestry?<
Dead folk can't understand a dang thing, brees. Now you put that in your pipe and smoke it.
>If there is a being that does not need to breath, eat, drink, sleep, in this world, I would not label them as a person.<
Sure, you would not label them a person and maybe I would not either; but neither you nor I have authority to declare "personhood." Surely we have general (and remarkably more loose than you think **reference abortion**) ideas of what a person is, but there is no dang proof that our ideas are precisely the same. Self-evidence is rendered impossible by the human condition itself, as we are all hopelessly cut-off from one another. I dare say we are cut off from any and all real truth. Heck, brees, you may even call "eating" one thing and I may call it something else.
Ultimately there really ain't no dang meaning on this friggin' earth. We have no proof that we all see anything exactly the same. We have no proof that something exists with absolute meaning-- something that is absolutely the same for every living creature. There is no meaning.
>Humans by definition have these limitations and many more.<
They do not. So there.
>You say such a person may very well exist. I say you have lost touch with your mental faculties.<
Very well. At least I have brains enough not to go running around throwing around desert religion as if it is objective truth.
>assumptions have a basis. Most people base their assumptions on something. You want to trust the contrivances of civilizations? I know you are well read but it intrigues me how you would put your complete faith behind the assumptions of a civilization that you just happen to have popped into forty or fifty years ago.<
You ain't been listening. I do not put my dang faith in "civilisation." Civilisation is really a nebulous and fleeting concept, nothing upon which one can or should depend in any ultimate sense. Nazi Germany was a "civilisation," depending upon who does the judging. (LOL. There ain't no self-evident nothing.)
>[Re: towel headed religion] I wear nothing on my head unless I am going out in very hot sun. I live in Colorado. When I need a hat, I wear a hat.<
And I do not recall ever claiming you wear a towel on your head. But you do throw around that towel-headed Quran and Muslim junk as if folk who have no respect for it are overlooking the obvious. Fact is, it ain't obvious at all. Indeed it is counter-intuitive.
>I have not brought up any thing having to do with mysticism or magic, nor do I believe in such things. I have no clue what you are talking about.<
When you start talking about them dang "messengers" and your "self-evident" troof, you talk nothing but magic, and goofy magic at that.
>Although, it seems obvious enough that you are intimidated by reference to a religion that you don?t understand.<
Oh I understand the thing perhaps better than you know. I simply reject it as a bunch of hogwash. But this does not mean I cannot respect it as your bunch of hogwash. I can respect it quite easily. We are all different, and tend to make gods outta any dang thing. You worship Allah, then fine, worship him. I hope you have yourself a great dang time. I think Allah a heathen god, but I respect your wish to worship such a heathen.
But when you start telling me this heathen junk is as evident as gravity, I must reject it out-of-hand just as I do atheist junk.
>Your argument would be stronger if you were to avoid expressions of ignorance and bigotry.<
Yeah, brees. Folk be ignorant and bigoted when they reject your towel-headed religion as being self-evident truth. But you fail to see how ignorant and bigoted you are being when you throw that goofy junk in folks faces as if they are overlooking something that is as obvious as the rising sun. I have noticed one thing about true bigots: every dang body is a bigot except for them.
>[If in your saying you have read my "crap"] you mean the things I have written on this thread fail to present a clear purpose for ones course in life, then of course you should not put your life on it. If you mean you have undertaken a scholarly review of Islam, then I can understand why you refer to your condition as my "dang" life. On what have you based your assumption that your life is "danged?"<
Well, if you are gonna try this kinda thing, you really ought to do it right instead of sounding like a dang dusty Bedouin. Nevertheless, so much for your pristine view of yourself. (grin)
>Well it?s your assumption that Abraham, Noah, Jacob, Jesus, and many, many others are goofy.<
I have studied enough to reasonably conclude none of these folk have a dang thing to do with Islam, certainly not "self-evident" Islam.
>My evidence was to their lives of honesty and virtue and their unanimous consensus to the existence of God and to the ability of human beings to confirm this within themselves.<
Some dang evidence, none of which is self-evident evidence. You believe these folk were in unanimous agreement that humans can confirm God within themselves. Other folk don't see nothing of the sort, especially when they see Jesus claiming that folk are dead, even though they walk the earth. This self-evidence of yearns is pure bunk.
>I think of these messengers as above reproach, you judged them goofy and have damned them.<
These "messengers" of yours have damned themselves, as they certainly have nothing to do with the Abraham, Noah, Jacob and Jesus I would exalt. But hey. They be your messengers. If you want to follow them, then knock yourself out. I am not here to kick around these heathens. I'm just telling you that throwing them around as if they are gravity is gonna get them kicked where I am concerned. (grin)
>What I have said can be put under a microscope and has been by thousands of scholars for thousands of years.<
Yeah sure.
>ME> I believe folk are naturally built such that they really cannot see the truth (though deep down they perceive it and know they do), even though it is right in front of them.<
>YOU> OK so this almost sounds like your testifying for the existence of self evident truth.<
I'm not testifying to a thing. Indeed I sincerely am not even concerned whether or not you agree with it. I'm just telling you my belief to point out that I and everyone else can sincerely perceive things in completely different ways. I believe the same absolute truth shines down upon all men in equal measure, condemning all, but that man's condition is such that he is by necessity cut off from it just as he is cut off from all other humans, just as a dead body is cut-off from the life that literally exists all around it. I believe folk are by nature ultimately dead, unable to do a thing in an ultimate sense.
I think that philosophically this is the way things must be, and that this system runs right up to our frail logic such that it nearly bridges the gap between faith and reason. Indeed I think faith and reason are nearly, if not precisely, identical. Even our reason is based upon metaphysical assumptions. There is no meaning.
But I would not go around claiming all this is "self-evident," while I am peering through and slogging around all this dang weak flesh. It is an odd matter, you see. Here, from my vantage point, I sit peering through these eyes of flesh, yet able to see the haunting truth of our condition: that all humanity is trapped in blindness to a profoundly hopeless degree, and that those of us who see this plainly can by no means make it plain to anyone else. So then when I hear atheists and folk like you running off about your self-evidence, I cannot but help think you blind as friggin' bats.
Do I here claim I am not blinded and that everyone else is? This sort of thing does not even compute with me. I am saying I see what I see, and understand that it is impossible for you to see it. I will then live in accordance with what I see (failing as my flesh forces me to, and overcoming as I can), sharing my vision whoever receives "eyes to see" it.
But I am not interested, as are so many religionists (whether Christian or heathen), in telling fanatical lies about how "self-evident" every dang thing is. I think folk who do this really do not see the truth at all. They are merely trying to convince themselves that they are okay. Well spouting heathen crap will definitely not make you okay, brees-- no matter how many folk believe it with you. Heck, even repeating the truth won't make you okay. (grin) |
