PLEASE FORWARD TO JIM G.
steve: sorry, but I can't post this through to Jim. It's really for him!
Jim:
You responded:
>>From the Declaration of Independence:
" We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.--- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men. . ."
I agree. Notice that they recognize the source of these rights to be their Creator.<<
There was actually great argument about this, but in the end it was decided that it didn't matter whether those unalienable rights were claimed to be granted by a deity or are Man's by nature of Man's existence. It was a philosophical blunder because Man does not need a god to justify his existence or define his rights. The USA was not based on the philosophy of the bible, nor of kingdoms, fiefdoms, emperors, or the State or Church, but on the insights of Aristotle and other great thinkers.
The ultimate source of Man's right to exist, and all rights which follow, is Man and Man's right to exist for himself.
>>Our Founding Fathers acknowledged the Creator as the ultimate source of our rights. If we respect the rights that this Creator grants, should we not also respect any responsibilities He expects from us?<<
Liberty and the maintaining of freedom demands responsibility, yes -- but it has nothing to do with a god.
>>As a matter of record, our early law reflected the moral standards found in the Bible. Moses, holding the tablets containing the ten commandments is chiseled into a marble wall in the Supreme Court Building, and the bible was often used in early Supreme Court cases.<<
It is the bible that advocates slavery! This was used by early Americans (to their everlasting shame) despite the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, to condone slavery in America.
Further, the bible states that Man's greatest virtue is sacrifice and suffering to attain heaven, while one of the greatest sins is pride! This is the antithesis of the American ideal.
>>You said that the primary influence on our Founding Fathers was Aristotle's philosophy. While this belief may give you personal solace,<<
It does not "give me solace," it is a fact (as opposed to opinion). Other philosophies present found their roots in Aristotelian thought regarding morals, ethics and the epistemological basis of the structure of Man's rights. You will note the dearth of Plato's ideas amongst the Founding Fathers.
>>careful examination of the facts will reveal that there were a number of philosophies (yes Aristotle was one of them) and movements represented among these men, but our Founding Fathers generally had a deep respect for Christian ethics, and they brought that respect with them to government. Christianity was a major, if not the predominant influence in the founding our nation.<<
Only to the extent that it was a carry-over , a vestigial tail, from the Dark Ages.
A REAL Christian society was founded earlier, predating the formation of the USA: the Puritan society. The Puritans lived by the word of the bible -- they were a sick, miserable society that was a view of humanity through a very dark mirror. At the other end of the spectrum, the Founding Fathers created a society based on reason, rationality, respect for privacy, property rights, intellectual, economic, political and religious freedom -- certainly not Judeo-Christian tradition!!
>>Were they perfect men? No.
Were they all Modern "born again" Christians? No, these Christians were subject to the cultural influences of their day, just as we are today.
Which of the Ten Commandments do you find bankrupt or immoral?<<
You did not respond to my comments regarding the Christian-socialist credo. You switch to the Ten Commandments. Have you no response to that part of my previous post? But I shall answer you:
Christ laid the foundation for socialism. Further, while some of the Ten Commandments are valid, others are not. Those that deal with faith are invalid. Those that address property rights are, in part, valid.
Beyond the Ten Commandments, what of Leviticus? Or "God's" lengthy instructions concerning the treatment of slaves and who may be a slave? Where is the morality in that? Or Christ's Eleventh Commandment which is often overlooked. Or Christ's irrational, concrete-bound, anti-man, communistic "Sermon on the Mount"? Or Christ's own rules on slavery? Or many modern day Christians, Moslems and Jews hatred and fear of *pure* capitalism?
>>Slave, yes (to Jesus Christ)... suffering, no ! How about you?<<
It is irrational and a moral crime for Man to be taught, goaded, tricked or coerced into becoming a slave to any other man, but especially to a supernatural being that can only be accepted by a willful suspension of all reason, denial of reality, denial of the cognitive, perceptual and conceptual thought, denial of unalienable rights and finally the unpardonable sin of denial of the self.
Hope this clarifies everything for you.
Father Terrence |
