Hawkmoon and Karma: response, restraint, and moderate Islam
Message 16466550
To:Karma who wrote (3161)
From: Hawkmoon Sunday, Oct 7, 2001 12:22 AM
View Replies (1) | Respond to of 3212
>>On balance, the US has shown remarkable restraint,<<
Yeah... if we'd shown this much restraint after December 7th, 1941, we'd still be trying to decide whether or not to declare war against the Japanese...
One of these days folks are finally going to understand that THIS IS WAR... and a war that is not going to end until Bin Laden is dead, his network dismantled, and moderate muslims empowered sufficiently to defeat every other extremist faction of Islam.
Right now I have the feeling quite a few folks think this is just some terrorist "crime" and not an act of war by a non-state entity harbored by a nation/state (Afghanistan).
Well, there threshold for what constitutes and act of war is far higher than mine. We lost 3 times the number of people in the WTC attack as we lost at Pearl Harbor. The result of this attack has caused well over 100 Billion in economic losses, something PH never did. It has thrown us deeper into the recession we all knew was coming anyway.
I just wonder what it takes for some people, apparently like yourself, to recognize a war when we're in one...
No offense intended Karma... but I just find it strange and it makes me wonder what you would be willing to fight a war over.
I have a sense that you'll say "nothing justifies war"...
And I'll just have to tell you to speak with OBL and the Taliban.
Hawk
Message 16466572
To:Hawkmoon who wrote (3170)
From: Karma Sunday, Oct 7, 2001 12:36 AM
View Replies (3) | Respond to of 3212
The big difference, Hawkmoon, is that in 1941 no one had developed a nuclear bomb--that didn't happen until a few years into the war. Today there are enough nukes to destroy the planet, and many of them happen to be in the hands of people who don't believe the sun rises and sets on the USA.
This is quite simply, and I don' t think I overstate the case, about survival of human civilization and not simply about finding and killing an Arab terrorist. This thing can spin out of control very quickly. If it was 1941 the US would have been dropping bombs by midnight of 9.11. and I would have supported it.There is a different dynamic operating now, and the time that is being taken by the most powerful nation in the world (US) to consider all of the ramifications of our response is the most intelligent approach possible.
We're not taking our time because we're afraid of bin Laden, we're moving slowly because of our concern about his friends, and how they'll respond to our attacks.
If an outfit as small as Al Quaeda can inflict this much damage on us in less than an hour, what do you think entire countries of Muslims could do in a few months with nuclear technology. WTF are we going to do, kill them all in order to eliminate the threat?!
Message 16466638
To:Karma who wrote (3176)
From: Hawkmoon Sunday, Oct 7, 2001 1:26 AM
View Replies (2) | Respond to of 3211
Karma... A nuclear war is not about to happen... For one, the nations with the primary arsenals of them are effectively on the same side of this fight... I certainly don't see the US and Russia flinging them at one another.
Secondly... a nuclear bomb is nothing more than VERY big bomb... The devastation that would result would be tremendous, of course, but it's not about to end the world as we know it. People are living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki right now.. and that stands as stark evidence of the recuperative powers of a nation to endure a nuclear attack.
It's just like this hype we're seeing over Anthrax and chemical weapons... Sure, they can kill lots of people but they won't be the end of the world either. (between 20 and 40 million people died from the Spanish Flu pandemic in 1918-1919 alone..).
WHAT IS AT STAKE is the ability for democratic nations to feel safe and secure enough to enjoy the fruits of their liberty. And I don't particularly care how many muslim extremists we have to elimiate to accomplish a return to that status. (and given that I'm in the DC area, I'm just as much a target as the next person).
Civilization is a chosen state of being. Being "civilized" means we deliberately choose to show restraint and to limit our reaction, just as a person might restrain himself if he gets "pushed and shoved" or even slapped.
But when faced with utter uncivilized behavior, and death threats that are being carried out on a massive scale, one has no choice but to drop the veneer of pacifistic behavior and decide whether they are going to "turn the other cheek" and provoke another attack, or fight back with every means possible to prevent suffering further injury. It's like I was always taught... if someone forces you into a fist fight, find a 2x4 and soundly thrash them until they don't feel inclined to provoke you again.
We know this OBL that ordered this attack. We know that the Taliban are a front for OBL's people and that HE is the real power in Afghanistan. Muhammed Omar, head of the Taliban, is married to his daughter, so we know that they have ties to OBL that extend beyond just "protection".. We know that OBL is married to Sheik Turabi's neice, so there's a connection to extremist groups operating against Egypt from Sudan. Thus, there is convincing evidence that this is a state upon state attack which warrants a declaration of war against Afghanistan (if only to be legally proper about what we're about to unleash upon them)..
And sure, there are innocent civilians in the way... This is the unfortunate consequence of war and I KNOW we'll attempt to limit civilian casualities to the greatest extent possible. But I also know, like was true with Germany and Japan, that the Afghan people will never be free unless the US takes its retribution to the ultimate result, namely victory and the downfall of the Taliban and death/surrender of OBL (he won't permit himself to be taken alive, I'm sure).
And I'm not concerned about his friends anymore than I would have been about Spain and Turkey entering WWII on the Axis side. If they do, they do... and they will share the same fate as the Taliban and OBL.
This is a brutal business Karma... No one wants war.. but it has been FORCED UPON US by this attack against US civilians. It's by the grace of god that only 6,000 people died, and not 20,000 (15,000 people escaped).
What I know is that if nuclear weapons are used, we know which nations have such technology and they know they will suffer retaliation (god forbid such a scenario).. They don't want to provoke a nuclear response because they know the US will send them all to see Allah FAR earlier than they had anticipated. The wealthy ringleaders who might be supportive of OBL really doesn't want to die. OBL is only a tool to accomplish their goals of asserting power over the moderate muslim governments. But they know they can't win in a knock-down slugout with the US.
But they CAN make us afraid... and make us second guess how far we should retaliate. They can try and divide us and make us believe that it's "our fault" that these people are willing to commit suicide attacks against civilians.
Well, following that logic, I guess we can claim it was OBL's fault that we were forced to NUKE KABUL and every other center of Islamic extremism...
Of course, we're not likely to do that... but for a threat to be real, the enemy must have every reason to believe that you're not above taking such a step.
I'm all for being deliberate about the type of action we take. But I'm also for giving some friendly "slaps" in the face so people in this country realize that theirs no talking ourselves out of this one. The gaunlet has been thrown down and if we don't pick it up, we'll never be respected as a global power again. And that will have not only military consequences for us, but economic ones as the world is forced to react to US ambiguity.
Hawk (and proud of it...)
Message 16466661
To:Hawkmoon who wrote (3195)
From: Karma Sunday, Oct 7, 2001 1:45 AM
View Replies (1) | Respond to of 3211
You seem confident that everyone has laid their nuclear cards on the table so that we can see them. I'm not so sure. FWIW, a nuclear option has, in fact, been floated in the press
The Soviets had thousands (I seem to remember the number 30,000) of scientists working on their biological warfare program, lots of those guys are/were out of work, and many were reportedly hired by IRAQ . . .I'm not being afraid, trust me, I'm trying to be aware. I know it's hard to develop bioweapons. . .it was unimaginable that the WTCs could fall like they did, and that the Pentagon would be attacked. These are evilly ingenious opponents and I would not eliminate many possibilities
Here's my bottom line: you have to respond to the circumstances that present themselves to you. The guys on flight 93 had to make quick judgements and "roll" immediately. We don't, and I like our odds, the more we hedge our bets. I've been in a couple of, and seen hundreds of, "can't lose" situations, where the odds on favorite wakes up on his back and asks "What the hell just happened?" It happens to countries too.. . . it happened to us on 9.11 and I don't want to see it again (but believe I will.)
I want us to be confident, but cocky worries me.
Message 16466670
To:Karma who wrote (3204)
From: Hawkmoon Sunday, Oct 7, 2001 1:56 AM
View Replies (1) | Respond to of 3211
I'm not being cocky... I fully expect another series of attacks against US assets, both civilian and military.
But as a leader of the world, we must be willing to suffer such risks, and/or losses, in order to restore some semblance of "order and peace" to the world, if only fleeting for a couple of decades or so.
I know I've said this before, but I think it needs to be emphasized again. This is a civil war between muslims we're talking about here. The US and Israel are being made out as convenient patsies here to justify it, but the REAL WAR is between moderate muslims, who live very well here in this nation of "infidels", and the extemists who seek to impose their repression interpretation of Islam upon their brethren. Unfortunately though, the US has a LOUSY TRACK RECORD of leaving our friends flapping in the breeze when the going gets tough, or things turn against us..
Thus, if we don't show decisive will and resolve as a people, and as a government, to see this thing through until extremist Islam is eliminated as a force, we're unlikely to see any REAL vocal support from moderate Arab regimes.
Hawk |
