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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group

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To: maceng2 who wrote (11212)11/23/2001 11:10:58 AM
From: spiral3  Read Replies (3) of 281500
 
(i) What can we expect to gain from a positive result (defeat of the Taliban and al-Qa'ida) of this war. Example: Can we possibly also expect destruction of the heroin trade too?

for some time I have thought that the US is about to see an influx of heroin and hash from abroad with devastating consequences to our youth. Look at me for example -g- Stricter border controls are now in place wrt Canada and Mexico which I think will mean less weed, but it won’t stop kids from wanting to get high. Given the combination of cash being in such short supply for the locals together with the US Goverment’s fondness for doing foreign drug deals, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the war on drugs intensify in the homeland.

(ii) What are our short term and long term expectations for a fair political system in Afghanistan (which include equal representation for women too, of course)

the best we can hope for is some kind of Islamic-Secular plurality with the emphasis on finding a workable alternative to Authoritarianism, which is all these poor people seem to understand.

Hopefully the end of the cold war will encourage US Policy to become more closely aligned to the issues faced by those on the ground. Domestically in the US Corporate Nationalism depends on a large middle class to maintain the status quo, and while this has yielded a legitimized political spectrum that only really stretches from Jesse to Jesse, there is a large degree of internal stability. According to the 2001 CIA Factbook Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households. cia.gov

The chilling observation of the cold war, that we didn’t mind dictators as long as they were our dictators was perhaps because in the short term Dictatorial regimes are more stable than democratic ones. The two party system is like what the world had during the cold war, only without the large middle class, so there were bound to be problems, because under such conditions democracy is far more volatile than authority. Centralization of US power as it exists on the world’s stage, would horrify many Americans if similar was perpetrated by the State on their home turf, indeed in recent days some have been getting pretty upset about this. The problem is you can’t tell your left from your right in this situation. Dom Helder Camara, a Folk Hero in describing his lifes work said it best "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."

Over the long term it’s a real crap shoot. This is a fascinating time to be watching the US define itself once again. In the intermediate term we get to vote for Jesse. If I knew all the answers I wouldn't have to ask so many questions.

Well, we are all equal human beings, drop that obvious truth, as did Hitler or many other leaders, and you run into even more serious problems sooner or later.

If you look around it doesn't seem that obvious, although in the end our humanity is all we've got.

Am I my Brothers Keeper or Am I my Keepers Brother.

I'd say it depends where you are.


Yes it does but I’d say it depends on who you are as well, a measure of the man. Socrates inclination was towards the idea that the diversity of human thought betrayed the commonality of the human condition. Focusing on the variables and losing sight of the constant makes it easy to forget that what is common amongst humans is far more enduring than what is different about them. Basically, like it or not, there is one incontrovertible fact here and that is that we are one - one species, one genetic pool. Our reproductive biology is influenced neither by race nor creed nor culture nor country - the proof is that anyone on the planet can have a child with anyone else, a pint of the enemy's blood may save your life if you got shot. Whether this is desirable or not is a matter of perception, whether it is possible or not is a matter of condition. I think it's a beautiful system. Universally people aspire to happiness and to avoid misfortune, love enlivens us, apathy stifles us and hatred poisons us. Our families are the most important thing in the world and beyond that, we like to be of service to fellow humans. The sheer weight of our humanity is our moral center our lowest common denominator - it is a biologically determined intuitive mystery that is so strong that we make Gods of it the world over and yet Religion has nothing to do with it. Make no mistake we Will go to war in spite of it. My strictly amateur two cent contribution to this smoky lounge is that the real peace dividend will only show up when we all agree what morality is.

When I see pictures of the dust covered Afghani citizenry I am most reminded of what downtown New York looked like on 911. For some places these conditions are a way of life, not a one hit wonder. Ask yourself - what does National Sovereignty mean for example to a country like Angola. It goes on until it just gets too damn expensive, everybody packs up and goes home, all except for the malnourished dogs of war who are left with bitten off balls and the rest of the cripples who wonder what the hell happened and what went wrong. Face it, when the SuperPowers decide to duke it out in your backyard you better get ready. Suck in for a minute the devastating effect of 911, multiply that by years and pick a spot on the African map to understand the consequences of being pawned in a proxy war, to understand that what means “sphere of influence” or “collateral damage” or “minimized adventurism” to some means utter devastation to others. Sorry but See no Evil, might sound good on paper but it doesn't balance the books. Too much red is just bad for business, and if you think US support for Israel isn’t partly about selling Arms to Arabs then I’ve got a bridge to sell.

MADness was an understanding in the face of the nuclear equation - and the notion was that Venture Capitalists and Venture Communists, sponsoring Proxy wars, is an acceptable expression of National Sovereignty. In settling the global Balance of Power, this little mindf*ck alone was sufficient to prevent the nuclear rich countries from ever having to consider a direct confrontation. After the US and Russia had checked it out they decided to rather pick up someone elses pieces. And we complain that for bin laden it’s all about Power? Why not call a spade a spade.

Using other people to fight your wars is not what I would call a manly concept not what I would call being politically correct. I wonder where the public ever got the idea that such stuff could ever float. The devastating message that some people are cannon fodder encourages people to shirk a personal sense of responsibility and to hand their lives over to the Lawyers. Does one really have to ask why the US may no longer be in a position to fight it’s battles - it’s no coincidence that many have thought that America was a Coward. Some real cold tricks from some real dirty dicks, a idea that readily translated into the understanding in poor countries, or should we by say poor people, that they don't really matter. It's no wonder the last election was decided in Court.

The law of unintended consequences is fair enough, but it’s one thing to worry about not having enough bullets in a war, it’s quite another having to worry, in some blasted country, about not having enough food to eat every single day of your life, especially if you’re missing a leg or an arm or your parents. Looking to reduced military expenditures is to confuse symptoms with causes. Looking at lowered goals is more to the point, because the source of this failure was the thinking that we had no Enemy, or that nothing was wrong to begin with - the peace dividend it turns out was nothing more than a perception.

If such airy fairyness lies at the foundation of our morality, then the failure of 911 might be described as the outcome of a very human flaw. If the actions of our leaders depend on the support of the collective consciousness at any point in time, as some here have suggested, then perhaps each of us has more to do than we want to believe with the unfolding of history and the the tragic events of that day. What is clear to me is that devising and implementing a coherent international security policy is a damn difficult business in the absence of a clearly discernible threat. When things get easy we take everything for granted. You can book that lesson, but can you take it to the bank? I’m alright Jack - the exact thinking that got us here in the first place.

I wish that all this wasn’t my problem. I am just a relatively well fed middle aged immigrant yearning for an America to fulfill the Promise I personally know that She is capable of. I have lived here for sixteen years, I am not fresh off the boat, I love it here, this is my home, 911 happened in my hood. Be thankful they censored the news - I’ve seen the Heart of Darkness before and on 911 it looked the same as it always did. It may sound corny, but to me those buildings were more than just a view - everyday I would look at them and somehow my gut was filled with a sense of awe and wonder - even if it was totally subconscious. The night of 911 I sat in my chair looking out the window at where the wtc used to be. I felt like I’d been blown up, I was shattered. Then a sudden sense of calm came over me as the understanding spread throughout my entire body that whoever had done this had just seen the peak of his power. It was all over, there and then. I was woken from this moral dream by my wife, who looked at me and said “whoever done this got something else up his sleeve”. So far I’m right, it makes a nice change -g-

From Afghanistans point of view I believe it would be best for the immense power of the USA plus allies to provide blanket protection but without ground troops. Then Afghanistan could sort her own problems out. This is much desired by her residents.

Besides solid leadership, courage and millions of dollars, what saved this city in the days following 911 was the only real antidote to hate known to mankind. What this is is no mystery. Like Osama we all screw up, but it doesn't mean burying your head in the sand. When the call for t-shirts, gloves and socks went out that fate full day my next door neighbor, a guy in his mid-late fifties handed in his 35 year old collection of tee shirts that was his adult life. He had kept it all in a suitcase and I asked him about it afterwards, curious as to how difficult this was for him to do, “It was easy” he said, “didn't even have to think about it”. When “who we think we are”, all of our goddammed psycho-materialisms, our baggage if you will, melts, and our humanity takes over - that is what I call morality, that is what I call a peace dividend.

The challenge right now is both to fight and to feed, and without this the Revolution in Moral Affairs will be just another failed theory. About the only outfit on the planet that can pull this off ‘quickly’, I think, is the US Military - GodSpeed to them. Despite what he says about being brothers under god, that this not a religious war, I hope that Bush's Bible is not the same as bin Laden's Koran, and that when Bush says "let's roll" I hope he doesn't mean, Armageddon, yeah, bring it on - daddy already brought us fire and brimstone or is that what's next. For us too, dying for what you believe in is an heroic act. There are temporal battles and there are eternal battles, pick your weapons - it’s the combination that counts. If 911 was a symptom of sickness, we need to pop this boil for good. The only reason that our society has so far been built by violence is because without aggression there could not be friendship. You don’t win wars with blind hate, but by being able to see clearly.

Socrates was looking for those moments when time stands still, but the times have changed and hopefully we have learnt to fight our wars differently. Whether it’s about Oil or about God or whatever the hell it’s about, America is fighting it’s own wars and She will get Respect for it because people the world over know what is wrong and what is right. And therein lies the rub - what are the moral implications for National Sovereignty of a Globalized environment - in a world of borders/no borders, this can be an evasive riddle. Golda Meier once said “you cannot shake hands with a clenched fist”.

A level of mutual trust would be most desirable. Plain open and sincere talk could get us there imho.

Yes, I would agree, the notion of what constitutes a ‘Foreigner’ is a tricky one, pointedly so it appears for an America which was built by them, but hates their criticism. What some may forget, through no fault of their own, except for a lack of international experience, is that they might have more in common with the foreigners they meet here than they might expect, take Mr Winn who like to buy shares for example, if he doesn’t mind. I might be just some kinda “.......ist”, funny because old friends think I’m a conservative Republican (vbg). Foreigners in the US can be quite different to their folks in the old country. America is more like a salad bowl than a melting pot, and this idea, like the air we all breathe, is spreading around the world. This time we're calling it Operation Enduring Freedom.

The less suffering and deaths are the common target for all.

Absolutely, but in any event, despite what I might think, here are some interesting points on Energy Policy from a dead priest.

Someday, after mastering the winds, the waves, the tides and gravity, we shall harness for God the energies of love, and then, for a second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, recalled on his death 10 Apr 55

Yes, it’s easy to critique foresight with hindsight, but from a moral point of view, in other words, whatever happens can happen “once we make the rules” -g-

Only here in the Grand Old US of A, where the winner takes all, in the Land of the Free, does Love mean never having to say you’re sorry.

You might not have asked for all this, but does that answer your question?

Aluta Continua.

Happy Thanks Giving, and no matter what any of you might think I'm neither what is known as religious nor do I think of myself as being particularly moral.
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