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Pastimes : AMAT Off-Topic Forum
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To: Fred Levine who wrote (695)4/24/2002 11:35:13 AM
From: runes  Read Replies (1) of 786
 
Fred -

Of course we are crossing lines - it wouldn't be much of a debate otherwise. I don't expect you to suddenly change you mind and vice-versa. But what we are doing is airing things out - exposing the weaknesses of each sides positions and debunking some of the misconceptions.

I didn't respond to all the points in your post because there were so many. So I tried to hit the main points.

<Arab assimilation of the immigrant issue...>
...First, your statement is again a blanket "them Arabs" statement which is effectively treating the problem as a racial issue. For the record - it is a PALESTINIAN refugee problem, not an Arab refugee problem.
...Second - as a matter of politics, nobody wants to do Israel a favor by making the refugee issue disappear from view. Not to mention the fear that Israel might start creating new refugees if the consequences are mitigated.

Begin and terrorsim -
...The point was that having been a terrorist does not preclude the possiblity of peace. What Begin did was still an act of terrorism. And while they British were not civilians I would argue that they were still in the "innocent" category much as the marines were in Lebanon.

US killing innocents -
...My point there was the fallacy of your "logic" where you take selected anectdotal evidence and synthesize a general conclusion. I see you passed on synthesizing a conclusion for the long history of Christian led persecution and Islamic tolerance of the Jews. Understandable as the obvious conclusion would absurdly deny the current realities.

Bin Laden -
...As a practical matter - If the US had stayed out of the Gulf War then Osama would have led the Saudi Army to victory over the secular (infidel) Sadam. At least this was Osama's wet dream as he returned from defeating the Russians. So history would have been very different (the manic would probably have gotten himself killed).
...As for his statement - he is giving an PR interview to the US media and his fame has been generated by attacks on US targets. So do you really expect him to say that deep down he is a nice guy just trying to fix US policy. Or do you expect him to say that he is a real scary guy and he is coming for us?

<I can't find a better alternative that's effective>
...And, sadly, that is the one opinion that most Israelis and most Palestinians have in common. And, taking this to it's logically absurd conclusion, you have a situation where each side depopulates the other until the entire region is eventually conquered by the Grand Duchy of Monaco and turned into a resort for religious gamblers.
...Or do you prefer the scenario where Israel wipes Palestine off the face of the planet once and for all?
...Or would you defer to history where the first Christian crusade (also based on their right of return) held the holy land for 100 years before they were driven back out.
...Or how about the one where the Palestinians are exiled and migrate around the world for a few hundred years before they claim their right of return?

...Sigh - so many bad endings to chose from. Funny how solutions based on force tend to be unpalatable.
...Being a bit more realistic - it is clear that ultimately there will be two states with Jerusalem a split (or independent) city. And some form of right of return/reparartions will have to be worked out. (IMO - at least half of that should come from the British hide for their incompetent stewardship of the region). And Israel will need to have a sense of security from the arrangements.
...And that solution will never happen under the threat of force.
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