Hi Solon. It appears we’re still struggling with whether or not the definition I gave can hold water.
"I offered a definition of a God who is truly Omnipotent, non-dependant, non-anthropomorphic, beyond materialistic descriptors, eternal, and infinite"
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Me: "The closest descriptor that I can come up with, at the moment, is “the beneficent.” This term describes a being who is kind, charitable, and considerate."
Solon: “Well, that is fine. But how can you have such attributes without having desire?”
Desire is a human attribute that is associated with an underlying votive urging. Also, in the human sense, there are the usual entanglements of need fulfillment.
Solon: “If you do not desire improvement or happiness...how can you will such change?
Improvement implies something short of perfection. Again the desire to change, improve, find happiness is a human urge but I would not attribute that to God. In addition, if you imply that God desires improvement and to be made happy by these improvements, you subjugate God to the choices made by human beings. Of course this violates the definition that I offered and opens the door to all kinds of rational entanglements.
Solon: “If your will is not based on the motive of desire...then what is the motive?”
It appears to me that my will to do things is motivated by need fulfillment, but I am a human being.
"I offered a definition of a God who is truly Omnipotent, non-dependant, non-anthropomorphic, beyond materialistic descriptors, eternal, and infinite"
Solon: “You have offered a description of a black hole. You have described something alien and inhuman, and lacking (naturally) in human character.
I have always been repelled by this inhuman conception. You apparently feel differently.”
Yes I do feel differently. Our discussion is not about whether or not this definition is repugnant to anyone, but about whether or not it could be viewed, at least in the abstract, as viable.
Solon: “If nothing mattered to human beings they would have no basis on which to assign different values to different outcomes. But it does matter to us; and so we make choices.”
Agreed, as one of us, I am grateful for any motivation I can find to greet each day's new light. I’m hoping its not such a challenge in the next life.
Solon: “But what of God? God could not make rational choices without first determining value.”
The key word for me in this statement is “choices.” Human beings have been given the ability to choose, based on underlying principles, that relate to circumstances involving conflicting values. God’s “mind” is made up on things, eternally…no rationalizing or flipping coins over hard choices or anything.
Solon: “The act of acknowledging that something is incomplete or imperfect is an act of acknowledging a sense of personal incompleteness if one is the creator of all things.”
I don’t accept the premise of, “personal incompleteness” of the creator of all things, as this again is an unnecessary violation of the definition that I offered.
Solon: “So we may name a couple of problems: 1). What is the motive for "creation", and 2). What is the explanation for "Concern" or "consideration"?”
Since the premise was unacceptable the dependant questions don’t apply.
Solon: “What does a complete and perfect being who cannot be changed, moved, or affected have to be "concerned" about??”
I don’t know.
Solon: “Do you see the problem?”
No.
Solon: “You try to give this entity human qualities, and you make Him vulnerable.”
I did not try to give God human qualities, that is your push.
Solon: “You make Him invulnerable, and you make Him inhuman. You cannot have it both ways.
Agreed. I don’t believe God is human. Humans are creatures, created by God, myself being among them.
Solon: “Then there is what we call "evil".”
Yes.
Solon: “You say it is perfect.”
You mean God is perfect? Yes, I say that.
Solon: “Well, people can say anything, can't they?”
Seems like it.
Solon: “But saying that bad is good and vice versa is awfully silly, and really just a moral dead-end...“
Agreed. It was not my intention to suggest any such thing, however. |
