>>sharon has made it quite clear he doesn't want to trade land for peace. trying to suggest otherwise is a lie.
well, my opinion is that Israel would only do it for real peace, which is out of reach for now. that was my point. the issue is not about land for Arabs, it's about getting the Jews out of the middle east. Sharon doesn't believe they will have real peace if they give up the land, so why give up the land? sharon is a military guy. the West Bank is on a higher elevation than Israel. you don't give up elevated land in the military as you just render yourself defenseless. 'peace' is an odd goal for the middle east situation. there can't be real peace when you don't have a society of tolerance.
>>what you know about camp david is more jewish propaganda.
educate me then. why turn down the best deal that the Palestinians are ever going to see?
>> Many/most Arabs believe Israel should not exist <<
>>the question then becomes, what kind of terrible things has israel done to the arabs to make them hold such an extreme viewpoint?
well, Israel has done lots of terrible things. many countries have. my point was simply that peace is basically impossible if you don't have a pluralistic society. I do think that the core reason has little to do with Israels terrible things and more to do with the Arab intolerance and core beliefs that infidels don't deserve to live on holy land. I don't pretend to understand this stuff to the core. Little of it makes much sense to me so I admit that I don't get where these people are coming from.
>> The Palestinians are just being used by the Middle East as a wall from Western influences <<
>>do you believe that israel ever uses the united states?
sure, it goes both ways. The US is using Israel and Israel is using the US.
>> Out there at some point, the US and Saudi Arabia are going to collide. <<
>>if the united states would stop acting servile to israel there would be no collision between the united states and the arab world.
>>what business is it of the united states to intervene in the the arab world? let them figure out their own destiny-- we don't want them to dictate ours.
I used to think the US should just pull out of the Middle East altogether and forget about it. From time to time, that was basically the Clinton policy. Keep our noses out of it if we didn't have a 'dog in the fight.' I have changed. As the military/economic superpower, we must involve ourselves. We must make the world a civilized and safer place. Yes, that is in our interest. Oh by the way, it is the right thing to do as well. It would be much nicer if the UN could play this role but they can't, they are impotent. That leaves us. On its current course, the Middle East could very well implode. You probably saw the report done by Arab intellectuals who condemned their societies as repressvie regimes holding back their society. They don't translate books from other languages, they don't innovate, they don't have free speech or an open media, they are just not productive or desirable societies. I guess they can base their existence on religion and never do anything else and be ok as long as oil can enrich them. But as oil slowly but surely becomes less significant, the Middle East could turn to chaos. Chaos is not good for the United States.
My point is that Israel IS productive. Israel does have an open media and free speech is allowed. We are supporting a country whose values are similar to ours. Israel has figured out how to be highly religious and also having a self-sustaining economy. I don't agree with many of Israel's decisions but I don't agree with anyone all the time so that isn't a surprise.
>>most americans don't realize that their limited view of israel is shaped by jewish influences here in america and around the world.
yes, Jewish influences and Christian influences and Muslim influences and Asian influences and everything else. that is a good thing. This argument by Arabs that Jews control our media and bias everything to Jews is sad. yah, and Jews were told ahead of time not to go to work at the trade center on 9/11 and Jews drink Arab children's blood on their holy days etc etc... give me a break.
I am not Jewish and I do not blindly support Israel. The issue is more complex than I can ever understand. What I do believe is that Palestine has no leadership, desperately needs some and that the Arab culture is currently repressed and intolerant. The Palestinian people deserve better than they are getting. They live in ruins. The thing is a mess. |
