In point of fact, the last internationally recognized administrator of the West Bank and Gaza was the British, a simple fact that you ignore.
Israel's internationally recognized borders do NOT include the settlements which have been declared illegal by the U.N., and are recognized by no other country. It was not for the British to decide borders of countries in the ME, anymore than it was for any colonial power nor anybody else - that decision belongs to the people living in those territories. Wholesale invasions of people from Europe (Zionist movement), could only result in displacement of the people already in the ME. It was not for Britain to deed land to anyone.
However unfortunate, the Palestinians had to pay the price of European crimes against the Jewish people - of course, it is absurd. Be that as it may, the world recognized the enormity of the Holocaust and chose a solution which victimized the original inhabitants of pre-67 Israel. And so Israel's existence was sanctioned by the U.N. So, are you surprised that Arabs reacted to this situation? How about we make YOU pay the damages for crimes committed by others against somebody else altogther? So, the Arabs "attacked" - not a bizarre reaction.
Yet, we all agree that Israel has the right to exist. Now the question is NOT: "by what right was Israel created" nor "why did Israel use terrorism to establish their state" nor "why did the Arabs attack Israel".
The issue is: the world recognizes Israel's pre-67 borders, and that is the ONLY source of Israel's legitimacy. The world does not recognize the expansion beyond 67 borders, and certainly the Arabs do not accept that. Nor can they be expected to.
Not controlling 100% of extremists does not mean it's fine not to control any extremists -- Arafat's interpretation.
Exactly my point - Israeli lies and war propaganda. Nobody can control extremists 100% - glad we can agree on that... seems Israel is demanding exactly that of the PA - HYPOCRITICALLY and knowing full well it is impossible, even as they violently stimulate further terrorism and take deliberate measures to provoke (Sharon's famous visit - the origin of this latest uprising). And it is a LIE and Israeli war propaganda that the PA was not trying to stop terrorism. They were, and they did, even if not 100%, as nobody can do that, including the Israelis.
The number of terrorist attacks dropped drastically
Not true at all. The number of terrorist attacks rose sharply after Oslo, as Hamas tried to stop the peace process. Check the figures at ict.org. As far as the Israelis are concerned, giving up land = dead Israelis, a conclusion that killed support for the peace process on the Israeli side.
First of all, the number of terrorist attacks and Israeli victims did fall drastically when Israel stopped occupying Lebanese territory, so there. Same will happen when they withdraw to pre-67 and give back the stolen land.
Second, yes, the Hamas tried to sabotage the peace process. But that's just my point. Yes, you will have extremists, but isn't it better to isolate them and lessen their support in their own society, and have the PA try to stop them (WHICH THEY DID, contrary to Israeli propaganda, as the PA worked with Israeli security services quite successfully), and not CREATE MORE TERRORISTS like the AA???
"Giving up land" did not mean more "dead Israelis" in the Egypt peace process (negotiated), or the NOT NEGOTIATEDLebanese withdrawal (less, not more dead Israelis), and the same would happen when Israel gives up the land stolen from the Palestinians. As seen in Lebanon, just giving up the stolen land can have good effects.
I liked your remark: "is what killed the peace process on the Israeli side" - seems to ME, that what killed the peace process on the Israeli side was a JEWISH TERRORIST BULLET which killed Rabin. That brought us the wonderful Netanyahu and his suicidal policies which down the road inevitably led to the current mess. Yes, the peace process can be killed by extremists on BOTH sides. The point I'm making is that you can't let the extremists determine your agenda or hold the peace process hostage.
Do you really believe, as you seem to, that the Palestinians deserve a sovereign state even if they plan to turn it into a Palestinian Taliban?
First, to speak of the Palestinians "deserving" a state is a hoot - how did the Israelis "deserve" a state? Because Zionists came from another continent, invaded a land, displaced the inhabitants and engaged in terrorist "ethic cleansing"? The Palestinians deserve a state NO less than Israel does, if anything, they deserve it more.
"Palestinian Taliban" - this truly is the tragedy of it all. No, I would not be happy to see a Palestine run by Hamas or PIJ. But the fact is, that if that were to happen, it would be entirely of Israel's making. It was an Israeli policy for decades to deligitimize the secular PA and actually promote the Islamicists as a counter-force to the PA. Well, it worked. Israel has a dark history here of monumental miscalculation. The current idiocy of attacking Arafat and the PA every time there is a Hamas or any other suicide bombing is merely the continuation of the same moronic and suicidal policy. Sharon would love to displace Arafat. Stupidity incarnate. At least the secular Arafat had a CHANCE of delivering peace to Israel (assuming Israel went back to pre-67 without dirty tricks, so Arafat could sell this to the Palestinian people). Arafat had at one point some authority to deliver - and without him you have nobody of any stature to sign an agreement with that would have any legitimacy among the majority of Palestinians. You will then be left with the countless minor figures with smaller constituencies - what a lovely prospect for negotiation. It is a pipe dream for Israelis to imagine that they can pick some minor Quisling to negotiate with, and for that negotiation to be worth spit with the Palestinian people. Israel had a relatively moderate leader in Arafat (the street is far more radical than he), had a leader with the right stature, and he was secular. It was their best chance. But they chose to destroy him and the PA in a mad plan of destroying any hope for a Palestinian state. What they will face now is infinitely worse. By destroying the secular PA, they have helped the Hamas and the radicals fill the power vacuum, and helped legitimize Hamas in Palestinian society at large. What stupidity. You mention "Hizbollah" - reminds me of another Israeli stupidity. When Israel invaded Lebanon to oust the PLO, they were greeted with gratitude, bread and salt by the Lebanese population. But they were warned: "do not occupy, or gratitude will turn to enmity" - and that is exactly what happened. The Israelis couldn't resist creating "security zones", which created INsecurity and turned allies and potential allies into deadly enemies. Hizbollah is ultimately an Israeli creation.
The same suicidal policies of generating hate with ill-conceived land-grabs and occupations are radicalizing the Palestinians, so that the nightmare of a "taliban Palestine" can become a reality. Thanks, Israel, good job!
In short, is there ANY standard of behavior you would require out of the Palestinians?
Absolutely. I would expect absolute peace from them once they have their state (Israel has to pull back to pre-67 100%). Any attack can be then met with justified Israeli retaliation, and I would support that 100% - just as I support Israel 100% in whatever measures they take against the terrorists attacking from Lebanon. And SO WOULD THE WORLD. That's the issue - nobody can support Israel, when they are an occupying force. Because the attacks against Israel are now a war of liberation, a just cause, and an expected natural self-defense reaction. And you can't persuade the world otherwise - so it has always been, that victims have a RIGHT to defend themselves. Israel vis a vis the Palestinians today is the rogue state against an occupied people. Israelis are in the wrong. And if the U.S. supports the Israeli occupying regime, we will be similarly tainted.
What you have not cottoned on to as yet, is that there really is NO CHOICE. Israel CANNOT solve the problem militarily. It is NOT a viable policy to continuously create hate by stealing land, killing people and occupation. Because one day, the Arabs will have the economic and military power many times greater than Israel. It is an inevitable evolution of trends. Today a tiny number of Israelis can hold sway over 100 million Arabs who are weak in every way. That will not always be so. Historically, populations always rise - is happening with India, China, happened with Japan, will happen with the Arabs - their economies and military will one day for sure be stronger than Israels. And that is the day I am looking at. I'd rather, that by that time they think of Israel as a friend, an integrated part of their neighborhood. I'd rathter that they don't have a feeling "well, now is payback time for all the murders of civilians and the stealing of land and the daily humiliation and persecution". What Israel sows today, they will reap tomorrow. And what they are sowing is hate. I'd rather that they sow friendship - that will secure their existence far better than sending tanks in to harrass Arafat and kill infants.
I'm simply saying: think about the end game. Think about what is in the LONG TERM as well as the SHORT TERM interests of Israel? Because trends continue inexorably, and the time of reckoning is only getting closer.
Funny, I'm sure you think I'm somehow anti-Israeli, while the opposite is true. I just spent a few weeks in August in Europe. I visited Eastern Europe, where sad to say anti-Semitism is alive and well (I had lengthy and unfruitful arguments with garden variety anti-semites there, hate is hard to reform). But what horrified me, was what happened in the rest of Europe, particularly Scandinavia (my background). Europe, and especially Scandinavian countries used to have large reservoirs of affection and support for Israel. I was horrified by the fact that all of that seems to have evaporated, as Israel has gone from legitimacy and feeling of cultural and historical affinity to the image of a brutal oppressor who is creating tremendous problems in the world. Sadly, that is the correct impression. But this shift in the perception of Israel does not bode well for Israel's future. The loss of legitimacy will one day happen with the U.S. public as well.
Personally, I'd rather see Israel in the future as having the FULL support of the world. I'd rather see them as having good relations with Arab countries. I'd rather see that, when the inevitable shift of power occurs in the Middle East. I want to see Israel survive - and I think what they are doing now is suicidal.
Stop the occupation. Stop the injustice. Stop the insanity. |
