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Let me start out. In earlier roundtables, some of the
panelists spoke about their concerns with the low level of
United States Government financing of NGO activities in China,
especially assistance in the area of legal reform.
They were worried that the legal standards and principles
that the Chinese were learning were more European-focused than
American. They saw that as something that was not particularly
in our own national interest.
They were asking for more American Government support for
American NGOs and other U.S. organizations, such as U.S. law
schools working in this area in China. I am wondering if there
is any parallel with the work you are doing with village
elections.
Go ahead, Liz.
Ms. Dugan. Thank you. If I understand you correctly, you
are asking whether there is a perceived need or an actual need
for U.S. Government funding.
Mr. Wolf. At the national legal reform level, Americans
involved in assisting believe that there is not enough American
involvement, and therefore legal reform in some areas are going
the road of non-American models, that is, European models or
perhaps Australian, Canadian, Japanese, depending on where the
money is coming from. I am wondering if there is any parallel
to that at the village election level.
Ms. Dugan. I will start off here, and then Yawei, you
correct me if you think I am wrong. It is my inclination to say
that American involvement in village election reform efforts
with Chinese partners is probably the deepest of any other. We
are not exclusively there, but more so than the European Union
[EU], more so than Norwegians, Dane. I am trying to think of
some other groups that I have run into along the way.
We are very, very interested in trying to find ways to
cooperate with those groups and make sure that we have
coordinated our efforts so that whatever program we are putting
in place is not a duplication of effort, or most certainly is
not working at cross purposes. But I think it is safe to say
that our efforts there are as broad as any other group's, if
not broader.
Mr. Liu. I agree with Liz, that the American organizations
are working very closely with the Chinese Government. That
includes IRI, the Ford Foundation, and the Carter Center.
But in terms of the amount of funds available to these
NGOs, and also a list of promised funds, the United States
Government is not close to the European Commission. The EU is
launching a huge project on rural governance and they are
setting up 10 training centers around China to conduct training
of elected village officials, as well as election officials at
all levels.
Although the EC is a big bureaucracy, it takes time for the
two big bureaucracies to iron out all of the differences. It
took them 4 years to finally hammer out the details of the
cooperation, which is going to start in August.
Ms. Thurston. I would echo what both Liz and Yawei have
said. I mean, certainly the EU has a lot more money to spend in
China. I think its problem has been, it also has a lot more
bureaucracy to cope with. So, it has been very, very slow
getting off the ground. Once it does, they do have the money
and they do have the commitment to work with the Chinese.
I want to say a couple of other things, though, about the
way you phrased this question. You phrased it in the context of
efforts at legal reform in China and the possibility that maybe
what is happening is that the legal reforms may be more like
Japan, or more like Europe.
I think my sense is that what both IRI and the Carter
Center are doing, and what we should be doing, is providing the
Chinese with the tools to make their own decisions. The last
thing that China wants is an ``American form of democracy.''
I would also say that I think there is considerable
skepticism in China in terms of working directly with the
American government, and therefore what we need is more money
going to NGOs like IRI, the Carter Center, and other NGOs as
well to work outside the government, but on issues that the
government would also support.
Mr. Wolf. Thanks.
Next is John Foarde.
Mr. Foarde. This question is also for any or all of the
panelists.
I take it from what Anne and Yawei said that we have not
really observed very many village elections of the many that we
hope are going on out there.
How much is the Ministry of Civil Affairs or the government
generally receptive to additional observer groups from Carter
Center, or anywhere in the United States, do you think?
Mr. Liu. If I may, I think the MCA has no problem with
receiving any Western or American delegations to observe
elections. So far, I do not think any official American
delegation has observed residence committee elections.
There was one attempt by Congressional Members to observe
it, but due to weather, the plane never landed. I think we
asked some of the diplomats from the U.S. Embassy to observe
elections in the past several years, but other than that, there
is no official observation. The MCA is open to all foreign
observation of the elections.
Also, though the election cycle in China is every 3 years,
there are no nationally restricted dates. So, just about every
month, there are elections in China somewhere. So if you do go
and contact MCA, they will make it possible for foreign
observers to see these elections.
Ms. Dugan. I concur with that remark. We have had nothing
but fine support and coordination with the Ministry of Civil
Affairs. I think they are very interested in being able to
demonstrate that this exercise is going on.
Mr. Foarde. So we would not be pushing the envelope to be
able to come forward and say we would like to see more
elsewhere in China, and we would like to possibly see some at
the official level, that is, having officials from the United
States observe them during an official visit?
Ms. Dugan. I can think of no reason why they would decline.
Ms. Thurston. I think the problem is usually a logistical
one, where elections are taking place, when, and who from the
Ministry is available.
Mr. Foarde. The further away from Beijing, Shanghai,
Guangzhou, the harder to get to, probably.
Ms. Thurston. Yes. Although once you have made the contact,
as IRI has, sometimes the easier it is to work with them.
Ms. Dugan. Right.
Mr. Foarde. Let me change subjects just slightly and ask
any of you who want to respond if you have any sense of what
the new generation of Chinese leaders that we expect to come
forward over the next year or so feel about or think about the
village election process, either anecdotally or by rumor, or
anything they might have said in public. Any sense at all?
Mr. Liu. Let me respond. I think the next generation, that
is, the generation that is going to emerge at the 16th Party
Congress, I do not think they have paid sufficient attention to
the issues of rural elections or introducing these electoral
measures to higher levels of the government, although they
began to take them into consideration.
I think we probably will not see any bolder or deeper
reform measures being taken up until maybe the next generation
in about 10 years. I think there is a growing critical mass in
the middle level of the Chinese officials that this is
something, as Anne said, is inevitable that has to be adopted.
Mr. Foarde. But I take it that you agree with Anne when she
says that the general consensus in China is that it has got to
come from the top down and not be a bottom-up process. Is that
right?
Mr. Liu. No. I think the pressure will have to come from
both sides. There is pressure from the bottom, such as social
unrest, unemployment, a decrease in income for the peasants,
the growing protest movement. These are the pressures from the
bottom. Then it is going to push, and the top will have to
respond.
But the problem is in the middle, particularly at the lower
middle level the township and county officials, that are most
resistant to these kinds of elections.
Mr. Foarde. I am out of time, and we have other colleagues
who want to ask questions. So, let us keep going.
Mr. Wolf. All right. Next is Jennifer Goedke with
Representative Marcy Kaptur.
Ms. Goedke. Thank you all for being here today.
My first question would be for Anne or Yawei. You both
spoke about motivating factors for the voters, including self
interests like local infrastructure or pricing of household
needs.
Are there any motivating social concerns that you are
seeing, anything like health care rights, workplace rights,
political freedom, anything along those lines, or are you
seeing that it is much more related to self interest of a local
community?
Ms. Thurston. Good question. I mean, it is actually a very
interesting one, and one that I think we need to know more
about. People in rural areas are not actually losing their
health care now as people in urban areas are, as the danwei
begins to fold.
That is a major issue in Chinese cities, and it should be
an issue in the countryside. But I have not seen an election
where that is the case. That does not mean that it will not
happen, cannot happen.
Similarly, with political freedom there is, as Yawei I
think has pointed out, a growing sense of rights, that the laws
governing village elections are being made public, so people
know that they have a legal basis for demanding that elections
be carried out according to the law.
In my own personal experience, it is quite a few steps
further up the ladder to think in terms of one's own individual
rights, human rights, civil rights, and that sort of thing.
I tell a story in a larger piece that I wrote about trying
to get a sense in villages of whether there is some sense, even
if it is not called human rights, of something that is
inalienable, that cannot be taken away from you, that is yours,
that you absolutely need and deserve.
When I have asked that question, the answer has always been
the same: roads. That is, what people think is very practical.
What they deserve, what they need, what is their right, is more
roads.
Mr. Liu. Yes. I think the issues during the elections are
always economic treatment, but also about education, about road
building. At the most recent village elections we observed, all
five candidates talked about the WTO [World Trade
Organization], to the surprise of all of the observers.
This was in a remote village in the Shandong Province. So,
they do not talk about political freedom.
They very rarely talk about the Party. National politics
are irrelevant here, so it is always issues that are very close
to them.
Ms. Goedke. For Elizabeth, we were talking about some of
the mass emigration from the countryside into the urban areas.
Are you seeing the influence of experience in village
elections, people who are coming from the countryside into
urban areas with this expectation for something, not
necessarily widespread democratic elections, but something from
their past experiences?
Ms. Dugan. Sort of the importation of that experience. I
have no evidence to suggest it, but ultimately it occurs to
me--it is an interesting question--it may be too early to
really have a sense of how that will work.
But, again, it speaks to the habit of voting, the
understanding that this is how we choose our leaders. To find
themselves in an environment in which they no longer have
control over that, it may supply some impetus for an
acceleration of that upward movement.
Ms. Goedke. Thank you.
Mr. Wolf. Thanks.
Holly Vineyard with the Commerce Department.
Ms. Vineyard. Thank you.
Several of you have mentioned the connection between
village elections and economic prosperity. I was wondering if
you could draw out that link a little more.
Is one driving the other? I would be very interested in
that, as well. I am very curious about the comment that the WTO
has become an issue in local elections. Any additional comments
you have on that would be welcome.
Mr. Liu. In terms of the WTO, the village that we observed
happened to have some vegetable gardens that exported
vegetables to Japan and other countries. That is why it became
an issue.
In terms of whether the economy is driving the elections or
the elections are driving the economy, I think Amy wrote an
article a long time before about the impact of economic
development. It is not very clear. I do not think there is
sufficient data proving that one way or the other.
In provinces like Guangdong where they are economically
very developed, they were very late in adopting village
committee elections. Once they adopted it, it went very far.
Now the government, the Party, is coming down on the elections
in Guangdong, so it is becoming more and more backward. So, the
relationship is not very clear.
But one thing that is clear, is that in areas that are
economically well-developed, there are always funds available
to conduct elections. This is becoming a growing issue, where
the funds are going to come from to conduct these elections,
particularly the township and county elections.
In poorer areas, they do not even have the funds to conduct
elections. In Fujian and Guangdong, there are always available
funds to conduct these elections. It is a huge, costly business
to run elections. The joke is, every time you have a round of
elections you will be able to build several highways throughout
China.
Ms. Thurston. Can I add to that? I think the theory that
says that political democratization goes hand in hand with
economic prosperity also suggests that the standard of living,
the annual yearly income, needs to be much, much higher than it
is in China today before you really begin to see this
correlation. I think that is probably one of the reasons we may
not be seeing the correlation at the village level.
But I would also say, in my own experience--and I think
there is other research being done now by other academics in
the China field--there may be some correlation between the
nature of ownership in the village and the types of elections
they have.
I think one of the dangers, is that in some areas of China
there is a concentration of ownership at the village level in a
very few hands. That is also an opportunity for the sort of
corruption of elections at the village level.
I mentioned that I have seen elections where the local
emperor gets elected, and that is often because he has access
to a lot of resources that he can use then to work in the
peasants' self-interests, which is more money, where they can
actually distribute the profits from some of these collective
enterprises to their own political benefit, and that is a
danger.
Ms. Dugan. I might just add, briefly, my experience in
observing elections in the villages of China is that the kinds
of issues that the candidates talk about, sometimes in a very
articulate fashion, sometimes maybe not so sophisticatedly, but
they tend to be the same kinds of things. The roads, of course.
Always, the roads. Clean water supply. Schools.
It occurs to me that it is so very similar to those very
local elections that we know here in the United States, and
that the issues are rooted in exactly the same things that
people living in small towns here in the United States care
about, too.
Ms. Vineyard. Interesting. Thank you.
Mr. Wolf. Thanks.
Mr. Foarde. I will remark while we are talking about this,
that this means that Tip O'Neill was not wrong when he said
that, ``All politics is local,'' and the corollary to that was,
``All local politics is public works.''
Ms. Thurston. That is true. Roads.
Mr. Wolf. Chris Billing.
Mr. Billing. I was wondering if any of you have any good
anecdotes that would help us get a sense of what it is like on
the scene during these elections. What are the people saying?
Are they all wearing tattered suits and coming in horse-drawn
carriages, and that sort of thing? Maybe, Anne, you could
start, but I would love to hear from all of you.
Ms. Thurston. Oh, I love anecdotes. Well, actually, the
visual setting of these elections looks different in different
parts of the country. In some parts of the country, the village
elections take place in a schoolyard. All of the villagers
arrive long before the foreigners get there.
You get there, and they are all lined up in their chairs
that they have brought from home. You see a variety of
clothing. The elderly people are generally wearing the
tattered, old, blue uniforms that they have worn for probably
centuries, and the younger people are dressed very brightly and
colorfully. It also is a very festive sort of occasion. I love
the visual impact of these elections.
Again, it does look different in other places, because in
some places there are literally polling stations. They are open
from early in the morning until sometime in the afternoon, and
people come one by one, or small group by small group over the
course of the day to vote. That looks very different.
The one anecdote that sticks in my mind, which is also an
anecdote that suggests what tremendous power some of these
higher-level units have--and I am not sure it is even
appropriate to tell it here--but I think I was with IRI, and I
think maybe Amy and Liz were there. I cannot quite remember.
But we were at an election where the election was being held
outdoors in a schoolyard.
The word that the foreigners were coming to observe the
election had gone out long before we got there. People from
villages around wanted to come and observe the foreigners
observing the elections, but there was a sort of perimeter
beyond which the villagers from other villages could not enter.
But, as the elections went on, and on, and on, these villagers
from other villages got closer, and closer, and closer.
And as they got too close, one of the upper-level officials
just turned around and he went like that [gesturing] to these
people who were coming closer and closer, and they all started
moving away. That, to me, was a little bit frightening in terms
of how much power these people still have just with the wave of
their hand.
Ms. Dugan. I would like to tell a story of when I had an
opportunity to participate in some of the training that we do
for newly elected village chairmen. There was an election I
observed in Shanxi Province.
Some 410 voters in this particular village participated in
the election this day, and it was what they call a ``sea
election.'' We would think of it as a primary, the first step
in voters actually determining who the candidates will be that
appear on the general election ballot. I had never seen one of
these elections before.
Now, the villagers all gathered in this election meeting
schoolyard setting, as Anne described. And, theoretically
speaking, each of the 410 villagers could have nominated
themselves on the piece of paper they were given for the
position of chairman, for example, and you would have 410
different nominees that were put forth.
But, of course, it does not really end up working that way,
because there are natural leaders that emerge in a village and
people know kind of who they would turn to to trust and to keep
their confidence. So, the results came and 273 ballots were
cast for candidate X, and 219 for candidate Y.
We presume, of course, that one of these two is the
currently seated chairman. In fact, no, the incumbent
candidate, who also was the Party branch secretary in this
particular village, had received 9 votes, which I think was a
pretty clear message from the voters in that particular village
on that particular day.
I cut my friend Yawei off here from telling his own story,
but maybe there will be another question of the same nature. At
any rate, I would like to express that story of two village
chairmen who have just come into their own new seat and need to
understand that if they want to be reelected and serve the
village on a more continuous basis, that the voters do have the
power to send a very clear message.
Mr. Wolf. We will give you a minute, Yawei, for an
anecdote.
Mr. Liu. All right. Thanks.
A very quick one. This last election we observed in
Shandong, where they talked about the WTO, the incumbent lost
the election and the Party secretary was elected. So, Chuck
Costello insisted on talking with the two candidates who lost
the election and who won the election.
The incumbent basically said, ``I was less capable.'' I
think what he did not dare to say, is really the government
supports the Party secretary to be elected. So, therefore, he
was not even in the running for that position.
But the winning person, the Party secretary, when asked why
he was able to beat the other guy, said, ``Because I understand
the marketplace better than the other guy.'' So, you see that
economics are in play.
A second anecdote which is very interesting, is when we did
the training in Ningxia last year, the MCA sent observers which
worked with IRI a lot. He went there and told them, your
nomination process is totally screwed up. It is going to create
problems.
The township Party secretary said, ``You city dwellers, you
do not know anything about what is going on over here. I
promise, this election is going to be smooth. There are not
going to be any problems.'' But, by the end of the day, no
candidate won enough to be elected. The voters just exploded.
One of the voters went up to the platform and grabbed the
microphone and said, the whole process was fraudulent. They
were almost on the verge of having a fist fight in a
schoolyard, because they could easily get the chairs and start
beating on each other.
Interestingly, all the provincial officials disappeared
from the scene. So, the MCA, the Party secretary, and the
township had an emergency meeting and then declared, these are
my cell numbers, fax numbers, home numbers: please report to me
in the next 3 days what went wrong. That calmed the situation.
This was last year in Ningxia.
Mr. Wolf. Thanks. Amy Gadsden.
Ms. Gadsden. I have a bunch of questions, and you can feel
free to answer any of them.
Liz, you mentioned in your anecdote, and one of the things
you pointed out, was that governance is as important or more
important than the elections themselves. I was wondering if any
of the panelists would comment on the impact of elections on
governance at the village level.
The second question I have has to do with the relationship
between the village committee and the Party committee. One of
the things that the election process has done is revealed a lot
of the problems between those two committees and the unclear
delineations of power or authority between those two branches
of government at the village level, and how some of those
problems are coming to the surface now as elections have taken
hold.
A third, related question--again, feel free to answer any
or all of these--is how have elections changed political
discourse in China more generally, not necessarily with regard
to villages and village governance, but in terms of how the
Chinese themselves are looking at politics and political
change.
I think one of the things that we have done as foreigners
observing elections is sort of filter it through a lens of,
``what does this mean for political reform? ''
Would you talk about whether the Chinese themselves filter
their experience with elections through this same lens or
whether they see elections as part of another phenomenon, or
lack of phenomenon, for that matter?
Ms. Thurston. Actually, I want to answer one of these
questions. Of course, you could answer all these questions,
too, Amy.
I think that one of the things that we as NGOs do not
really know, because most NGOs come in, observe elections, and
do not usually stay afterward to see what happens.
I think a next step, a next very important and certainly
very interesting step, would be to return to villages where we
have observed elections, and then see what happens to
governance. We are working on a very nice presumption that
somehow governance gets better with elections, but I do not
think we know that for sure. I think it would be very nice to
start trying to learn that. I think that there are academics
now who are beginning to try to investigate that.
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