... continued from previous post ...
Mr. Billing. One school of thought says that the Chinese
Government allows these elections in order to give the peasants
an opportunity to let off some steam and perhaps to avoid
social unrest that way.
Do you think there is a viable threat of that in the
Chinese countryside, and are the elections successful in
appeasing the peasants? Perhaps, Yawei, you could start.
Mr. Liu. Yes. I think it certainly has played a role of
releasing the peasants' anger and frustration to a certain
extent, because you are sort of giving them an opportunity to
vent their anger by either electing a new leader or recalling
the leader that is incompetent or corrupt.
But, again, I do not think this is going to solve all of
the problems. The government does work very hard to prevent the
farmers from forming any cross-border or cross-region
organizations.
One of the things I said that the scholars have been
talking about, is that despite the nature of these elections,
no matter how direct they are, the people who are elected are
ultimately servants to the government because the township
government is using them to serve the purpose of family
planning, raising revenue, taxes, and all that.
So what the scholars are suggesting is that we need to have
farmers' alliances, making them truly independent, making them
able to bargain with the government. This is something the
village committee elections and the elected village committee
members cannot accomplish.
Ms. Thurston. I think that is a really good question. In
terms of my own personal observation of the Chinese
countryside, one of the things that distresses me right now is
that there is a sort of disconnect between what we are hearing
now about the increased level of violence and protest in the
Chinese countryside and going down to observe village
elections.
I mean, you are not observing violence and protest in the
countryside when you observe village elections. Since we do not
have figures and numbers, it is very hard to know where the
balance lies and how significant and important that protest may
be. So, that is another plea for more research in the Chinese
countryside.
The one case that the Ministry of Civil Affairs used to use
a number of years ago was the incidence of protests in Renshou
County in Sichuan. The argument of people at the Ministry of
Civil Affairs was that the people from Renshou County who had
gotten together to protest had not participated in village
elections and they were being taxed without their permission.
But when they tried to go next door to the counties on
their outskirts and solicit participation in their protests by
people from those counties, they were refused because people in
those counties had held village elections and they were voting
their own taxes.
So, this is a case that used to be used many years ago by
the Ministry of Civil Affairs to suggest that participation in
village elections would mediate against violence and protests.
Mr. Wolf. Amy.
Ms. Gadsden. No questions.
Mr. Wolf. Matt.
Mr. Tuchow. I wanted to come back to the ultimate question,
which I think Anne Thurston raised in her remarks earlier. That
is, how do you believe China should move to a more democratic
and open society without creating uncontrollable chaos and
unrest?
Ms. Thurston. Well, that is a book. That is a big, huge
question. I think the first answer is that we have been
addressing here very specifically questions of village
elections, but China has a tremendous set of problems, sort of
grassroots level problems, that it has to face and it has to
overcome in the next 5 to 10 years.
I think that a lot of the protests, a lot of the unrest
that we are seeing in China today is a result of the fact that
the government has not been able to solve some of these
problems, and the problems are problems of unemployment, or
unemployment in the cities, surplus labor in the countryside,
growing inequality between urban areas and rural areas, between
the coast and inland areas, this transition that the country is
going through in terms of going from state-owned enterprises
into private and joint venture companies. But there are just a
whole lot of very upsetting, destabilizing things taking place
in China right now.
I also have to say that, much as I would like China to move
more quickly in a more democratic direction, the more time I
spend there and the more time I see the extent of their
problems, and again just the vastness of the number of people
in that country, the more I think that China really does have
to go very carefully, step by step.
So my bottom line would still come back to, somehow you
need this gradual merger or this gradual sort of coming
together of the top and the bottom. Yawei mentioned that you
cannot take this away from people at the grassroots level now,
but you still, in the end, are going to need the cooperation,
the initiative, and the leadership from the people at the top
in order to begin moving these elections upward.
But I think that that is what ultimately has to take place:
You gradually do have to begin to move these upward to the
township, to the county, to the province, and hopefully to the
national level.
Mr. Liu. I think this often raises the issue that if we go
democratic, then the country is going to be turned upside down.
It would be chaotic. It will be running amok. It is a myth that
we all have to debunk.
That is, if we are going to introduce universally accepted
democratic measures, then China is going to go chaotic because
our people are not very well educated, they do not know how to
choose.
I think that is a very elitist view from top down in China
to a lot of the urban dwellers, saying the Chinese peasants are
not very civilized. You give them 5 bucks, they are going to
vote for any person you tell them to vote for.
I think the MCA officials have a very clear view on this,
that it does not matter how less well-educated these peasants
are, they know where their interests are and they know how to
cast a ballot. If they are given the opportunity to cast an
unfettered and free ballot, they will be able to make their
choice in a very wise way.
Ms. Dugan. Yawei is 100 percent correct in that, that
though they may not be highly educated, they know what is in
their hearts, they know what it is that they want. This process
that we have all had the privilege to observe is one that does
not produce immediate results. As I mentioned before, it is not
for the impatient. So, it will take a long time.
I think Anne is correct. I think in some conversations that
I have had with the Chinese you are left a very distinct
impression that they are highly concerned about not following
the Russia model, and to steer clear of that, of moving too
fast in one specific direction. That is to say, as they move
forward it will be incremental, it will be slow.
Mr. Tuchow. Do the peasants see this as in any way related
to Western democracy or the West, or do they just see this in
the small confines of their village?
Ms. Thurston. I think if you use the word ``democracy,''
they see that as related to the West and they see it related to
the United States. For all of the sort of anti-American
sentiment that you see or you hear about in China today,
certainly there is also a lot of very pro-American sentiment as
well, both in terms of our economy and in terms of our
politics.
I would, by the way, like to echo this. I have to say that
some of the people in China who I admire the most are people
down there in the countryside who have overcome difficulties
the likes of which you and I could not even imagine. I mean,
families starving to death.
They are always one step ahead of what the government will
allow. Despite the fact that they are not educated, they have
just done remarkable things for themselves and their families.
I think that they do not, by any means, get enough credit from
people in China's urban areas who do tend to look down on them.
Mr. Wolf. Thanks.
Given the powerful role of the Chinese Communist Party, its
political and economic strength, constitutional power, why
would one expect that grassroots activities such as helping
promote village elections, occupational safety and health
training in individual factories, legal clinics in a few
locations, or trying to teach women what their rights are under
Chinese law, would have a measurable impact on the political
dynamics and the political and social structure of the nation?
Ms. Thurston. That is a good question. I would have to
think about it. One answer, and I think I said it in at least
part of my written piece, is that it seems to be that, in the
long term, what these village elections are doing is putting in
place the structure by which elections could be held at higher
levels.
I mean, so long as the process of expanding and improving
upon village elections continues, when the time comes and you
do begin to see them move upward, all of the technical details
have sort of already been ironed out, the structure is in
place. So, in that sense it is good preparation.
Mr. Liu. I think all of these things, though they are
minor, if you consider the population and how big China is,
cumulatively, I think they have a huge impact on the future
transformation of China.
Another anecdote over here, is we invited the Ministry of
Civil Affairs officials to observe the U.S. Presidential
elections in 2000. In other circles, people were talking about
it being a joke, but the officials that we invited were saying,
we do not see it as a joke. We see the supremacy of the law. It
is an election that comes out by the court.
I mean, all these people, when they were in Atlanta, they
were watching TV until 2 o'clock in the morning. They keep
talking about how these issues are being resolved. That is, you
have to obey the law. It does not matter whether you are
president or vice president, it is not going to make a
difference in the court. Everyone is equal.
It is these visits, these trainings we do in China. We have
trained 300, IRI probably trained more. These are the trainers.
They go down, they train others. It is mushrooming. It is a
chain reaction. I think, overall, the impact can never be
exaggerated.
Ms. Dugan. Well, I concur. It is a difficult question. But
I think of it a little bit like squeezing toothpaste out of a
tube, and there is no really easy way to put it back in once it
is out there.
To the extent that, again, there is just this engendering
of empowerment that takes place and people get used to it, and
they have a general understanding that this is their right,
this is due them, to be able to select their own leaders and
participate in this process, it is not without its own value.
Mr. Wolf. Well, if, in the coming couple of weeks you think
about this or could refer us to some people who have, in a
fairly rigorous way, addressed this issue, please let us know.
I think it is important that we on the staff be able to
explain to our Commissioners who, rightfully, are looking at
the use of Federal funds going into grassroots activities in
China in the future with some skepticism, why this is money
well spent.
The question is, how to get a rigorous analysis of the
impact of these programs on our broader goals?
John.
Mr. Foarde. No questions.
Mr. Wolf. Holly.
Ms. Vineyard. Following up on Ira's point there, I am
wondering, would it be a useful exercise to have some of the
Commissioners who sit on this Commission go to China to observe
a local election? Would that be, do you think, helpful for them
to understand the process or would it get in the way? Would it
be helpful in having a brighter spotlight shining on the good
works that you are doing?
Ms. Dugan. I think it would be a very useful exercise for a
number of reasons, not the least of which is, in my experience,
people who do not spend time in China receive most of their
information about what is happening in China straight through
Beijing.
The usefulness of being able to be out in the middle of
nowhere in China to observe this process just brings you a
little bit closer to real information. So, I would
wholeheartedly support such an effort, and we would be
delighted to try to help make the arrangements for it.
Mr. Liu. I would echo Liz, that it would be extremely
useful if there is time and opportunity for Commissioners to go
to China to see the elections. I think it can be done.
Also, when the Chinese officials come, either invited by
the IRI or the Carter Center, I hope there will be meetings
between the Commissioners and the MCA officials, or even
between the officials and the aides over here.
We are going to bring a group at the end of October, early
November to see the mid-term elections over here. That would be
a great opportunity for you guys to look at these officials who
are trying so hard to implement this grassroots democracy.
Ms. Thurston. I would obviously echo that. China, I think,
in general is a country that really has to be seen and
experienced in order for us even to begin to understand it. I
think the same is true of village elections.
I mean, my suspicion is that very few people can even
conceive of what a Chinese village looks like or how it is
organized, and very few of us in the United States could. I
just think the importance of being there, observing, feeling,
and seeing what it is like would be very important to anybody
who is interested in this issue.
Ms. Vineyard. Thank you.
Mr. Wolf. Chris.
Mr. Billing. Yawei, you mentioned Buyun in your testimony.
What do we know now about what happened there, and what can we
learn from Buyun County in Sichuan Province?
Mr. Liu. In the Buyun case, of course, there was a direct
election of a township magistrate in December 1998. Thereafter,
it was declared as being unconstitutional. Then there was
endorsement by a legal daily in China saying this is the
Xiaogong Village of political reform. Xiaogong Village is the
village in Anhui Province that divided the land among the
peasants themselves in 1979 and started the household
responsibility system.
The last day of 2001, the Buyun township had another
``direct election'' of a magistrate. This is despite the Party
circular banning such activities. But they became a little bit
more creative this time.
Instead of having the voters directly electing the
magistrate, they were asking the voters to nominate one
candidate to be submitted to the township People's Congress.
So, therefore, it is a quasi-direct election because the voters
directly elect only one candidate to that position.
This person who was elected last time got reelected, but
with a very small margin. The challenger almost beat him,
although he said he was going to win this hands-down. He was
going to win 75 percent of the vote. Instead, he only won 51
percent of the votes, a clear indication of competition and a
clear indication that the voters thought he himself used his
position to maximize his influence and tried to get the voters
to cast his ballot. So, there is a reaction to his efforts.
There probably will be more cases in China in the near
future to model their elections after Buyun. We are still
holding our breaths to see if that is going to spread.
Mr. Tuchow. Is the central government actually trying to
stop that from happening?
Mr. Liu. There is no clear warning from the central
government, other than the circular issued July 2001, saying
that all indirect elections are going to be strictly in
accordance with the Constitution and the organic law of local
governments.
So, basically they stopped it in the name of the law. But
local officials are still challenging this, although in a very
creative and original way, without jeopardizing their career.
Mr. Wolf. Matt.
Mr. Tuchow. I am wondering if you could just say a word or
two more about urban elections, and particularly the unique
challenges that they create. I imagine, if it is one work unit
and not another, that may create some competition, animosity,
or jealousy among one another. I am wondering if you have
observed unique issues relating to urban elections.
Ms. Dugan. Thank you for the opportunity. It is a very new
thing and it is being done very differently in a lot of
different places. In Liuzhou, where we had a chance to observe,
one of the elections had many different work units represented
in the voting constituency, in another one, only one.
The interesting thing to my mind about these urban
elections is that, though the voting populations are much
larger, 2,000 in one of these cases, 4,000 in another, these
are, as a general rule, much larger than you would find in a
rural village election. But you are also dealing with a much
more concentrated geographical area.
As a result of these two variables, one thing that occurs
to me--which is anathema to Chinese in our experience--is that
campaigning, telling voters what it is that you intend to do
for them and letting them understand how to make their choice
on election day, becomes much more important. In a village of
300 or 400 people, all right, I will give it to you, those
villagers know who the candidates are. They know what they
stand for. This is like just one big neighborhood.
In these residence committees, or what they represent, you
are talking about more people that are not going to know every
candidate. It becomes impossible for a candidate to be known by
that many people without taking the effort to reach them
somehow. So, that becomes a very important element.
I think that no longer does the sense of having an election
meeting actually work in the villages for everybody to come and
congregate, and there is a place for them to sit, there is
enough room for them. You cannot do that with the urban areas.
There is not a place large enough to hold the entire voting
population.
So, polling stations become another sort of important
element that needs to be included as they begin to put down
these regulations that will guide the fashion in which these
elections are administered. Those are a couple of things I
might offer.
Mr. Tuchow. Have some of these urban elections taken place
in the biggest cities, like Shanghai and Beijing?
Ms. Dugan. They have, but not in the same way that they are
being experimented with in places like Shenyang, which I speak
about in my more formal presentation, and in Qingdao. Guangxi
is the first province to really take it on as, we are going to
do this province-wide. But I do not answer your question. I
apologize.
In Beijing, they do have, in a fashion, an election for
these neighborhood committees, but it is not a direct election
as we have come to know it. It is certainly not being mirrored
in these exercises, this experimentation that is taking place.
Would you agree, Yawei?
Mr. Liu. Yes. The Ministry of Civil Affairs is also in
charge of urban elections and they are about to revise the law,
called the Organic Law of Urban Residence Committees.
I think the officials in Beijing and officials in provinces
are divided on what is going to be the focus of this law that
is going to be revised, whether it is going to focus more on
electoral procedures or it is going to focus more on service to
be delivered to these urban residence committees.
The voters are different, as Liz mentioned earlier. They
all belong to a work unit, but at the same time, they have to
return home. All their services used to be provided by the work
unit, so they do not have this tie with this urban committee.
So the officials, I think, argue very heatedly as to the
core of this law that is going to be revised, whether the focus
is going to be on elections or trying to organize these
committees in such a way that services to women, to old people,
to children, to the sanitation issues can be delivered as soon
as possible and in a money-saving way.
Ms. Thurston. May I add? I stopped by a year ago just sort
of unannounced to a residence committee in Beijing and talked
with a woman there, and she actually was a laid-off worker. She
was in her early 40s. She had lost her job. She was then being
trained by the City of Beijing in a sort of service capacity.
After that, she expected to be elected to this position. So, it
is an evolving thing, obviously.
But at least my experience in Beijing was that there are a
lot of new issues being faced by these neighborhoods and that
some of these committees are being set up to serve people as
they face some of their problems.
Mr. Wolf. Well, we have had you here for 2 hours. We
appreciate you giving us your time and your insights. I think
all of us learned a lot. And it is useful for our Commissioners
as they put together their annual report. So, thank you all.
[Whereupon, at 4:32 p.m. the roundtable was concluded.]
A P P E N D I X |
