I could give you hundreds of references of the Sharia in the Ottoman Empire
And if you look at the details, you will see that it was really not the sharia we know and detest at this point in time.
Take a look at the legal system during the Ottoman Empire.
using Google, type in devshirme and slave and you will find many references
I am sorry but devshirme were not slaves, no matter how many Google sites claim they are. The very fact that many devshirmes rose to the Grand Vezir post, and that children of devshirmes were NOT accepted as devshirmes shows that this was not a slave status.
Re conversion to Islam of the devshirme - I think there was a misunderstanding. My understanding was that you were suggesting the devshirme system as one of the tools through which the conquered lands were converted to Islam in Ottoman times:
As for the Ottoman Empire, not only did they have the Sharia, but exercised a particularly heinous practice of devshirme.
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... which is how we got to this subject in the first place. When I said "Converting them to Islam was not part of the plan", I was talking about the purpose of the devshirme system and how it was not to convert the conquered lands, but now I reread it, and I see that I have made it sound like the devshirme boys were not converted. Sorry about that.
Well of course they all aren’t Christian but what little I know seems consistent with the idea that the Sultan viewed the European land as an area to be “milked” for slaves and tribute
Remembering that we started this whole conversation talking about the religion Islam and its "jihads" hell-bent on converting everyone to Islam, I would like to emphasize that the conquered lands were NOT converted to Islam in the times of the Ottoman Empire. Yes, tax was collected, and yes, boys were selected and taken for education & service in military and bureaucracy, rising to very important posts. However, there was NO forced conversion to Islam, which is why Europe east of Vienna is not Muslim right now.
What do you expect, though? We are talking about lands that were fought over and conquered, centuries ago. If it were today, they would have installed a puppet government and argued the prisoners are not POWs or something <g> But it was then, not now, and so quite a few things we consider inhuman now were quite normal in a conquered land.
Mass conversions would have posed a problem
Really? Roman Empire did mass conversions (or death) for a long time. People do convert quite easily when they are given death as the only other option, it seems.
I do not claim to know why exactly Ottoman Empire did not convert the conquered lands to Islam. I am only giving this as a counterexample to what you have said here:
Remember the Muslims conquered largely Christian lands. Now these lands are predominantly Muslim
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the few first hand experiences I have had with Greeks, Serbs Croats and Romanians all uniformly have had an abiding loathing of the Turks.
I don't know about that "abiding loathing", but it would not surprise me. The conquered never really loves the conquerer, I guess...
>>>They conquered, and then got the tax. They did not forcibly convert<<<
Constantly taxed to destitution and enslavement, humiliated in the good times and massacred in the bad, I guess we just have a different idea of what force means.
Have I in some way suggested that they were nice? I only said Ottomans did not forcibly convert the lands they conquered to Islam. That's all.
I doubt if we have a different idea of what force means. But perhaps we should remember that we were talking about CONVERTING to Islam by force, and not about the other stuff that happened when a land got conquered.
The jizya was collected in some places up until the beginning of the twentieth century.
Ottoman Empire lasted until the end of WWI, so yes, it would not surprise me if they managed to collect taxes until then.
Still, are you suggesting that taxes are inhuman treatment? If so, I suggest you take a look at some of the more creative methods of inflicting pain on conquered lands that other empires implemented.
Anyway, I hope that I have been able to make the point that it is not true that Muslims always converted Christian lands they have conquered. |
