Check out what Hamza has to say about France and Germany. That's the real reason why they're against military action.
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CNN CROSSFIRE - Interview With Saddam's Bomb Maker
Aired February 7, 2003 - 19:00 ET
cnn.com
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CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington. Iraqi scientists are finally talking with U.N. weapons inspectors. Their first private meeting came only yesterday. Three more scientists were interviewed today.
No doubt our next guest can sympathize with their reluctance. Before getting away, he was Saddam Hussein's personal nuclear adviser. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the book aptly titled, "Saddam's Bombmaker." Please welcome Khidhir Hamza to the CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: First, thank you for joining us.
KHIDHIR HAMZA, AUTHOR, "SADDAM'S BOMBMAKER": Thank you.
BEGALA: How did a nice guy like you wind up trying to make nuclear bombs for Saddam Hussein?
HAMZA: Oh, it starts usually on national security grounds. Israel was having a large nuclear weapons program, and the idea was to have some kind of deterrence to that program. A few nuclear weapons, two or three. I was sent to France to buy a reactor, which I did. And the purpose was...
BEGALA: After being educated here at MIT, right?
HAMZA: Yes, of course. The idea was that eventually it would take 20 years, 30 years to get the nuclear weapon done. In the meanwhile, we would get all kinds of money to build the infrastructure, science, and technology infrastructure for Iraq. That was the point.
BEGALA: And you began this thing with no moral qualms whatsoever.
HAMZA: Initially, actually we thought eventually we'll have to sit down at a peace table and we'll have a card of our own to get better terms. With the Israelis holding all of the cards, we'll have no way to bargain with them. But Israel is so small. Three population centers (ph).
If we have two, three nuclear weapons, we have the equivalence of the Israeli arsenal. And as such, we could be able to get some better terms. It was never meant to be used. But the Gulf War told us that Saddam would use it if he's going to go (ph).
He asked us to make one nuclear weapon when the war about to commence. What would he do with it? One nuclear weapon. You cannot test it. You lose it if you test it.
So the only thing he told us, he's going to drop it on somebody. That's what he was going to do. And this we knew was an insane scenario. We didn't even want to be involved in it. After that I left.
CARLSON: If we could just back up a second. You said just a moment ago that you went to France to buy a nuclear reactor. You explain this in some detail in your book. And I just want to put it up on the screen and paraphrase it.
You said, "We went to France to buy a nuclear reactor. On the face of it, our cover story didn't pass the smell test. But we learned again and again nobody cared. Everyone wanted our money. The French were first in line."
"Saddam already cinched the reactor deal in principle with Prime Minister Jacques Chirac" -- still in power -- "undoubtedly as a quid- pro-quo for oil concessions in Iraq, Iraqi imports of French cars, the award of a lucrative contract to develop a lake resort outside Baghdad, and promises to purchase French military planes."
You make it sound like France knew what you were going to use these materials for. Do you think that's the truth?
HAMZA: We already had the reactor. We were three nuclear physicists and we were not using that reactor -- utilizing it fully. So when we asked the French for a much larger reactor, much more sophisticated, they said, how many nuclear physicists do you have? We said three. They started laughing.
We already had the reactor. Why do we need another much larger reactor for three guys? What would they do with it?
CARLSON: Right. So you're saying -- just to make certain I have this absolutely right -- that France, the self-described conscience of the world, knowingly gave or sold materials to Saddam Hussein to build a nuclear weapon. Is that what you're saying?
HAMZA: Yes.
CARLSON: How do you feel about that?
HAMZA: Actually, the same experience I had in Germany. And we went in 1987 and we asked -- actually, we needed to build bomb parts, so we asked -- we were trying to buy a foundry from them. And I was again heading a team to negotiate with (UNINTELLIGIBLE), a major German concerns (ph) to buy a large foundry. It was such sophistication, dealing with very high temperature metals, which is uranium, mostly.
And when they asked, we gave them some minor excuse. We want to do it for such and such minor metals. They started laughing again.
The laugh told us something. Told us they knew and they meant to let us know that they knew, but we shouldn't worry. They are going to sell it anyway. And they gave us an offer for $120 million to sell the plant.
They laughed to let you not worry, because if they don't let you know that they know, you might drop out at the last minute when you get scared that they know. OK, they are going to, somehow one way or the other, jeopardize the deal or not deliver. No, they told you ahead of time. We know what you want it for. OK? Give us the deal and we'll give it to you, and you need not worry.
BEGALA: Let me ask you about -- I think it was 1981, early '80s. Israel bombed an Iraqi nuclear power plant, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), as I recall. If Israel had not destroyed that plant, would you have had a bomb for the Gulf War?
HAMZA: Israel -- actually, what Israel is that it got out the immediate danger out of the way. But it created a much larger danger in the longer range. What happened is that Saddam ordered us -- we were 400 when...
BEGALA: Four hundred?
HAMZA: Scientists and technologists running the program. And when they bombed that reactor out, we had also invested $400 million. And the French reactor and the associated plans were from Italy. When they bombed it out we became 7,000 with a $10 billion investment for a secret much larger underground program to make bomb material by enriching uranium. We dropped the reactor out totally, which was the plutonium for making nuclear weapons, and went directly into enriching uranium.
BEGALA: But still, you would have had -- there was a report in 1991 (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Gulf War that you were six months away from a bomb. Had the Israelis not destroyed that nuclear facility, which most of the world thought was a terrible idea at the time, and obviously I think it was a wonderful idea, you would have had one by 1991 when American troops were going in to liberate Kuwait.
HAMZA: Oh, we were going to have one anyway, yes, by 1990. And that was the same scenario where that wasn't presented to us. Make one nuclear weapon and that's it. The idea is here, one reactor easily destroyable in the long range, making actually very difficult to make the inspectors come again under six months. The French were there.
It was difficult for us to cheat using that reactor. So the Israelis assumed there is no overall inspection. There's nobody looking over our shoulders when we use that reactor. And they estimated we'll make seven kilograms of plutonium a year, which is enough for one bomb. And they get scared and bombed (ph) it out.
Actually it was much less than this, and it would have taken a much longer time. But the program we built later in secret would make six bombs a year.
BEGALA: That will have to be our last word. Chilling last word, and the book is chilling as well. Hang on with us, actually. We're going to keep you for one more segment. I'm sorry.
In a minute, we're going to ask Dr. Hamza what Saddam Hussein is really like in person. And later, one of our viewers wonders if there is a fourth member of President Bush's axis of evil. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We are talking with Khidhir Hamza, who was once the personal nuclear adviser to Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. He has written about it in a fascinating new book call called "Saddam's Bombmaker."
CARLSON: Mr. Hamza, knowing what you know -- and you know a lot -- you know Saddam Hussein personally -- do you support an American- led war to remove him from power?
HAMZA: Actually, yes. There's no fix to the problem Saddam created. In a sense, inspection is not going to disarm him, because what you need with the inspections to be successful, especially in monitoring that he doesn't get armed again, is that you need the transparency in government. People should be able to talk. Inspectors and the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) should have free access to government and what are the institutions. You should be able to go anywhere. Iraq's system of government is impossible. So what you have here, even if you take what he has now, which it's impossible to keep him from rearming, so actually, there's no fix for this.
Removing him, regime change is the only solution to this problem. Otherwise you will have -- what you have is containment, which is what gave you 9/11. Containment to create a lot of frustration. The Iraqi people will suffer. People will sympathize with their suffering, and it will create a lot of back fueling (ph) to the U.S. And eventually you'll get the nucleus of another group that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) terrorist acts against the U.S.
So it is not a solution that eventually in the long range will bring back the U.S. into the region in a favorable way.
BEGALA: Let me ask you about 1991. Saddam Hussein did not have a nuclear bomb. He did have chemical and biological weapons. He did not use them against American troops, not because I think he's a nice guy -- he certainly doesn't come off very nicely in your book -- but because he was deterred by the force of the American military. Will deterrence work again if we invade Iraq, or will we be hit with chemical and biological weapons?
HAMZA: No. Actually, he used them indirectly. What he did is placed them in the path of U.S. troops coming toward Baghdad. And it (UNINTELLIGIBLE) some of them. The (UNINTELLIGIBLE) explosions, which blew up a lot of gasses and around the American troops is probably the cause for the Gulf War syndrome now. Of course, you don't see it much in the American (UNINTELLIGIBLE), despite the recourse you have.
You see 10 times as much among the Iraqis in the region. Iraqi hospitals are full of people with cancers and all kind of diseases from the chemical weapons Saddam placed, presumably in the path for American troops. It was going (UNINTELLIGIBLE) them.
BEGALA: He will use them if we have another war?
HAMZA. The planning now, the Pentagon planning is to take care of this. There's a lot of planning to prevent...
CARLSON: Unfortunately, we are completely out of time. Mr. Hamza, that was genuinely interesting. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate it.
HAMZA: Thank you. |
