Found a moment to respond Mars Bar..
Real busy right now.
RE>>And those "holding places" for the "dead" ...
now that is intriguing , could you elaborate ? <<
Your last post almost seemed honest?
Many of the "theories" about "Holding" places is
not contained within scripture.
The Jews and many other believed in the "underworld" a
place where some were tortured and others were not.
Hades, Gehenna Sheol are words found in scripture that describe these holding places:
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, And burneth unto the lowest Sheol,
The Western mind is locked into thinking the "grave" signifies a little plot - highly overpriced - 6 feet deep.
That is not what the "grave" often means in the bible.
Here is one comment upon the subject....
Hell
Derived from the Saxon helan, to cover; hence the covered or the invisible place. In Scripture there are three words so rendered: 1. Sheol, occurring in the Old Testament sixty-five times. This word sheol is derived from a root-word meaning "to ask, " "demand; " hence insatiableness #Pr 30:15,16 It is rendered "grave" thirty-one times #Ge 37:35 42:38 44:29,31 1Sa 2:6 etc. The Revisers have retained this rendering in the historical books with the original word in the margin, while in the poetical books they have reversed this rule. In thirty-one cases in the Authorized Version this word is rendered "hell, " the place of disembodied spirits. The inhabitants of sheol are "the congregation of the dead" #Pr 21:16 It is:
a. the abode of the wicked #Nu 16:33 Job 24:19 Ps 9:17 31:17 etc.;
b. of the good #Ps 16:10 30:3 49:15 86:13 etc. Sheol is described as:
a. deep #Job 11:8
b. dark #Job 10:21,22
c. with bars #Job 17:16
d. The dead "go down" to it #Nu 16:30,33 Eze 31:15,16,17 2. The Greek word hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison #1Pe 3:19 with gates and bars and locks #Mt 16:18 Re 1:18 and it is downward #Mt 11:23 Lu 10:15 The righteous and the wicked are separated. The blessed dead are in that part of hades called paradise #Lu 23:43 They are also said to be in Abraham’s bosom #Lu 16:22 3. Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New Testament, designates the place of the lost #Mt 23:33 The fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions #Mt 8:12 13:42 22:13 25:30 Lu 16:24 etc.
See HINNOM 24790
Many think of the grave not as where the soul went
but merely where the body was laid.
A highly uneducated presumption.
The word sometimes does indicate tombs or a sepulchre but not always.
07585 lwav sh@’owl sheh-ole’ or lav sh@ol sheh-ole’
from 07592; TWOT-2303c; n f
AV-grave 31, hell 31, pit 3; 65
1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
1a) the underworld
1b) Sheol-the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1b1) place of no return
1b2) without praise of God
1b3) wicked sent there for punishment
1b4) righteous not abandoned to it
1b5) of the place of exile (fig)
1b6) of extreme degradation in sin
You may find this an interesting scripture:
1 Samuel 2:6 Jehovah killeth, and maketh alive: He bringeth down to Sheol, and bringeth up.
This verse teaches that God takes men from this life
down to the underworld and then will bring them up again.
A verse that taught that God would or could bring men back
from the "underworld" - it has nothing to do with the physical.
It is however spoken to encourage men that they could be
'resurrected' from a philosophical grave of poverty
or sickness and guilt.
Here is another word that was translated "grave" that
has more to do with destruction than a resting place for the
body.
07845 txv shachath shakh’-ath
from 07743; TWOT-2343.1c, 2370d; n f
AV-corruption 4, pit 14, destruction 2, ditch 2, grave 1; 23
1) pit, destruction, grave
1a) pit (for catching lions)
1b) pit (of Hell)
It was translated "pit" 14 times in KJV but "grave" once.
"Grave" in English bibles may have been derived from the
greek term "Hades" - that is definately NOT about the
seperation of soul and body at physical death.
86 Adhv hades hah’-dace
from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT-1:146,22; n pr loc
AV-hell 10, grave 1; 11
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, #Lu 16:23; Re 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.
Men may argue that the people of Jesus day believe many
folklore and greek mythologies but...
Those who infer that Christ would use such misbegotten concepts
to illustrate truth do a 'grave' injustice to Christ.
What kind of truth is it that perpetuates 'white' or harmless lies
for the greater good of conveying major truths?
Romans 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Jesus would become party with lies and evil doer *IF*
He in anyway seems to add creedence to falsehoods.
Jesus said this:
John 8:52 The Jews said unto him, Now we know that thou hast a demon.
Abraham died, and the prophets; and thou sayest,
If a man keep my word, he shall never taste of death.
Jesus was obviously not speaking about physical death
did He not keep His own word?
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died,
and was carried by the angels into Abraham‘s bosom:
the rich man also died, and was buried;
"Abraham's Bosom" was in the underworld - not heaven.
A holding place for the souls of them that "slept" until the
resurrection. Many today understand Christians to go to heaven
upon death and that their bodies are what is to be resurrected.
They quidkly add that it will not be the same body however but
a new and glorified body.
They just do not know any better.
No one went to heaven before Christ.
No one accended into heaven after death (physical) before 70 AD.
They went to Sheol or Gehenna - a holding place of torment
or comfort.
That is what Christ plainly said in the parable of Lazarus and the "rich man"
The rich man begger "Abraham" to have mercy upon Him because
God was not there. God was in heaven above not a place below.
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness,
and the first begotten of the dead,
and the prince of the kings of the earth.
Unto him that loved us,
and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Christ spoke the above words - which both transcended time
and yet did not. His own estate was one of having ascended
before ascending but the estate of believers was that none
had ascended as of yet into heaven ( written prior to the resurrection)
RE>>Do you dream when you are dead ? <<
No - you are fully conscious - but - the condition before 70 AD and the condition of the dead after 70 AD are 2 different subjects.
The holding places and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
They no longer exist.
Men either go to the lake or to heaven - at least that is how I see it at this point.
My discoveries in this area are yet being made.
Did Christ retain a physical body after ascending into heaven?
NO!
1 Timothy 6:13 ¶ I give thee charge in the sight of God,
who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus,
who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed
and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen,
nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write;
These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like
unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
People who insist upon a western literal understanding
must confess that Jesus now has "metal feet"
How ridiculous - what a brutish approach to God's Holy Word. |
