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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH

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To: Kevin Rose who wrote (380538)3/28/2003 11:10:34 AM
From: Johannes Pilch  Read Replies (1) of 769670
 
Basically, this is what has happened with the Koran. There are *explicit* passages that are contrary to the interpretation of the so-called 'clerics' of these extreme sects, as in

[Quran 7:28] They commit a gross sin, then say,
"We found our parents doing this, and GOD
has commanded us to do it."


The verse is irrelevant to this discussion. It merely tells of general humanity’s error in justifying their errors based upon errors of their ancestors. Big deal.

[Quran 49:13]"O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous.

Irrelevant. You must try and view the quran as many muslims view it. You are literally pressing your highly subjective judgments of “righteousness” upon islam, as if your judgments are reasonable. To muslims, "Righteousness" itself may well have a definition that lies outside the boundaries of human nature (i.e. it is defined by allah). You do not get to define it, pal.

So your approach is terribly flawed. This text merely says the 'best are those who are most righteous.' And many muslims reasonably accept that one cannot be righteous unless one fights “[unbelievers] until no mischief remains, and only Allah is worshipped…” (Sura 9:5)

[Quran 5:87] ... and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.

The verse by no means necessarily mitigates the Islamic problem. Unlike in Christianity, it is clearly established that muslims have the right to be both judge and executor against those they deem have wronged them. Christians cannot of themselves retaliate. Muslims can. This is the issue and the problem because with many muslims, merely supporting Israel is an act of aggression allowing muslims to retaliate.

There is just no clear definition in the quran of the idea of aggression and when it is appropriate to retaliate against those who “attack.” Therefore, a muslim who reads the quran can reasonably “fight against unbelievers until no mischief remains” though those unbelievers may themselves assert they have committed no mischief at all.

Because of this defect in Islam, muslim clerics must make these definitions clear and enforce them. The rest of your prooftexts are equally weak for the reason above. So I will not waste further time with them.

However, there are those extremists who will ignore the obvious passages above…

The passages cannot be obvious as long as muslims have a command from their “god” to retaliate. With such commands the muslims themselves are put in position of being judge and executor. When muslims read the quran and then retaliate against Israeli civilians by murdering them, they can reasonably assume they are following allah.

Although previous passages clearly show that suicide is wrong…

You insist upon pressing your subjective determinate of “suicide” upon these people when it can be reasonably assumed that the bombers are not committing suicide at all. Surely it may be suicide to us, but not to them and their views are most valid. They are literally running to attack and kill their enemies in a retaliatory act that is indeed commanded by the quran.

Retaliation is the problem here. Muslims have a command from allah to be both judge and executor of the lives of other humans. That is the defect as long as muslims have no real overriding authority defining when retaliation is permitted. The muslims who now commit murder are certainly following the quran. You simply disagree with them, and that is not a compelling argument.
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