Hi Hawkmoon; Re: "I said I don't know how many losses will be sustained. All I care about is the result being worth the loss of any lives."
Don't worry about explaining it to me. I can discern the truth by using my profiling skills.
As the Vietnam war ramped up, the right wing claimed that it was an important strategic battle, and that the remaining countries in SE Asia would fall like a row of dominoes if we didn't stop Communism in Vietnam. They darkly hinted at an eventual Communist takeover in the United States itself.
Compare:
Hawkmoon, June 14, 2003
... don't let that deflect me from the ultimate objective that MUST be accomplished.
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That we shouldn't attempt to pre-empt a situation which might call for even more bloodshed down the road.
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And I can only imagine how you would be should the US ever find itself invaded (however unlikely). "Well, NYC isn't worth defending if it's going to cost us more than 1 death per day".. And lord knows that SE Washington DC isnt' worth the life of any US soldier (and can probably defend itself.
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... no matter how strategic the victory might be. #reply-19032362
Then, as the US found itself mired in an unwinnable war, the Hawkmoons of the time claimed that we couldn't leave because it would hurt the image of the US abroad.
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Hawkmoon, June 14, 2003
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And show the world that their impression of the US is true. We're just another paper tiger who can't stand to take casualities. #reply-19032362
Along the way, naive strategists in both Republican and Democrat administrations looked to the body count, the immense amount of US power, and concluded that the US would win, ignoring the realities of what makes people fight.
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Hawkmoon, June 14, 2003
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Uh.. don't forget that the ambusing force was WIPED OUT without a single US death.
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The promise of the "light at the end of the tunnel" was that the local government would take over for us. But at the same time, the local government in Vietnam was corrupt and not supported by a large enough fraction of the public. The US used its influence to change the government to one that it thought would fight better, but the taint of US influence stuck with the new administration which never won the hearts and minds of a sufficiently large number of people.
In Iraq, our government does nothing other than to postpone setting up even US appointed Iraqi panels to assist in a new government, and continues to make statements to the effect that an Islamic Republic will not be allowed. This in a fanatical region where every single democratically elected government is based on a religion.
Compare:
Hawkmoon, June 14, 2003
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What NEEDS to happen over the next 1/2 year is re-establishing the Iraqi army and police force so they can deal with the counter-insurgency.
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The ominous parallels between what the Hawkmoons were saying before Vietnam, and now, are bad enough, but what really worries me is the refusal to acknowledge previous mistakes. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Fortunately, enough of us remember Vietnam that we're not going to.
Re: "All I care about is that people like yourself aren't able to create such self-doubt(and self-hate) that we leave the job undone before we depart Iraq with at least some semblance of stability and governmental accountability to the people in place.
The government is capable of producing far more "self-doubt" on its own. Jesus weeps! Do you think that I stood on the deck of an aircraft carrier and announced to the world that the war was over? Was I the one that sent our troops looking in a hopeless search for WMDs that were not in existence? Was I the guy who decided to launch a war despite not having permission from the Turks? Did I force our troops out of Saudi Arabia or Turkey (and maybe Germany and Korea soon enough)? Did I shit all over an alliance that had kept the world's peace for 50 years? Did I run around claiming that the Iraqis would greet us with flowers and parades? Did I suggest that the occupation of Iraq would be as easy and successful as that of Germany and Japan, and would require fewer troops? Look to yourself, and count the defects in your own judgement first, loser.
You screwed up by cheering the administration into Iraq, and now that the chickens are coming home to roost, instead of looking to yourself, you point fingers.
You're basically a coward.
This whole war was run by a group of cowards who were unable to risk the thought that maybe someday the US would be attacked again. They got themselves worked up into a panic and they made a world class mistake. Instead of reducing the amount of terrorism they have fed the flames so that they will not die down for years.
You're like the coward who runs from combat, thinking that by showing his back to the enemy he will escape with his own life. You don't think so? Look around you, do you see palm trees and sand dunes? No? That's cause the brave men are (ineffectually) defending your cowardly ass in Iraq while you pray for their success at home.
Instead of the survival that is so important to you, a full scale war with the Arabs will bring destruction to your home. It is only your panic that has brought you to believe that killing a few thousand Arabs is going to make the Osama bin Ladens of the world stop their terror.
The truth is that our military cannot defeat Osama bin Laden. Our police cannot defeat him. The Israeli military cannot defeat him. The Arab governments and armies cannot defeat him. He can only be defeated by the Arab peoples themselves.
This is a battle for hearts and minds. The administrations actions have increased the danger for us all. And it isn't because those chicken hawks are brave. No, they're cowards, the people that the brave men are defending.
And by the way, watch what happens when US policy swings the other way. Is Hawkmoon going to push for the success of the anti-war side when they're in power as he demands (as a matter of patriotism!) from the peace side now? No, you hypocritical coward, you were screaming about Clinton every year he was in office, and when another Democrat gets elected you'll scream about him too. (Uh, I guess I should admit that I was screaming about Clinton too, but I'm not a hypocritical moron who wrapped himself in the flag while doing it, I hope.)
Loser, you knew going into Iraq that you would get no support from me, why are you begging for it now that the war is turning into the unwinnable disaster that I warned you about? For that matter, why don't you go complain about the Conservative party in England, that's right the party of Margret Thatcher, whose leader calls Blair a liar of whom no word can be believed for his lies about WMDs?
-- Carl |
