[23:26] > American pilots dropped the controversial incendiary agent napalm on Iraqi troops during the advance on Baghdad. The attacks caused massive fireballs that obliterated several Iraqi positions.
[23:26] > The Pentagon denied using napalm at the time, but Marine pilots and their commanders have confirmed that they used an upgraded version of the weapon against dug-in positions. They said napalm, which has a distinctive smell, was used because of its psychological effect on an enemy.
[23:26] > news.independent.co.uk
[23:26] > A 1980 UN convention banned the use against civilian targets of napalm, a terrifying mixture of jet fuel and polystyrene that sticks to skin as it burns. The US, which did not sign the treaty, is one of the few countries that makes use of the weapon. It was employed notoriously against both civilian and military targets in the Vietnam war.
[23:26] > The upgraded weapon, which uses kerosene rather than petrol, was used in March and April, when dozens of napalm bombs were dropped near bridges over the Saddam Canal and the Tigris river, south of Baghdad.
[23:26] > "We napalmed both those [bridge] approaches," said Colonel James Alles, commander of Marine Air Group 11. "Unfortunately there were people there ... you could see them in the [cockpit] video. They were Iraqi soldiers. It's no great way to die. The generals love napalm. It has a big psychological effect."
[23:27] <barcode_> ouch
[23:28] <barcode_> Vossol_: see any interesting action on island friday AH
[23:28] <Vossol_> doesn't sound like civilian targets tho
[23:28] > it hit the newswires this morning
[23:28] > some people are outraged
[23:28] > e.g.
[23:28] > What sickens me is that Iraq did not attack the US.
[23:28] > I believe in time, some of these incidents will be
[23:28] > rightly viewed as war crimes. Now, if we could isolate
[23:28] > a cell of Al Qaeda that participated in the 9-11
[23:28] > plot, I would have no problem with dropping a few
[23:28] > of these on those bastards, and watching their skin
[23:28] > burned off right in front of me.
[23:28] > But - the Iraqis, for all other faults DID NOT ATTACK
[23:28] > THE US! I can not believe what this country has done
[23:28] > in the name of prevention. On this Sunday, may God
[23:28] > have mercy on the souls of those in power that made
[23:28] > these decisions in the US...
[23:30] <Vossol_> sunday post has graphic showing those aluminum tubes mentioned by powell to the un. the graphic showed the dimensions and material called for by the uranium enrichment device plans are different from those ordered and those ordered were similar in size and material used to copy an italian missle.
[23:30] <barcode_> well civilians don't digin
[23:30] > digin?
[23:31] <Vossol_> as in civilians don't dig in next to bridge approaches
[23:32] > yeah the big thing from my perspective is that we basically brought our own WMDs for use on iraqis
[23:32] <barcode_> exactly
[23:32] > it's a double standard to the highest degree
[23:32] <barcode_> we didn't use WMD's over there
[23:33] <Vossol_> lots of countries have wmd
[23:33] <Vossol_> russia, china, usa, uk, france, etc
[23:33] > we spent a good time in my psych class discussing the cognitive process necessary for people to think its okay to kill their enemies
[23:33] <barcode_> war's never pretty business and how is a grenade that blows the bottom half of a soldiers torso off and he dies in alot of pain but thats huhmane and napalm isnt?
[23:33] <barcode_> self projecction
[23:33] > most of which involved the idea of dehumanization
[23:33] <Vossol_> un told iraq they can't have them because they did not play nice before.
[23:33] <barcode_> true
[23:34] <barcode_> pretty bad circumstances to have a war
[23:34] <Vossol_> oh, well, i'm sure the gov't does that
[23:34] > equating soldiers w/ rats, etc
[23:34] <barcode_> i dont like politics
[23:34] > powell can be quoted recently as saying saddamm is trash.. waiting to be collected
[23:34] <Vossol_> they still use careful wording to put usa ppl in good light and the iraqis on the run in a bad light. they do that even today
[23:35] > just a bunch of rationalization for the dissonance they experience
[23:35] > makes me sick
[23:35] <barcode_> well any enemies countries soldiers are going to get demoralized
[23:35] <barcode_> it creates a border
[23:35] <barcode_> bigger gap in border the better
[23:35] <barcode_> makes war more understandable
[23:35] <Vossol_> when the next big fish is caught he won't be an enemy combatant, he'll be an evil thug and part of saddam's internal terror machine
[23:36] > from my lecture notes..
[23:36] <barcode_> well Vossol_ if he has gassed/tortured then he deserves that branding
[23:36] > manifestation of percieved enemy based on psych process
[23:36] > (ie iraq association w/ al queda
[23:36] > foe seen as demonic
[23:37] > process of dehumanization facilitates killing
[23:37] <barcode_> yup
[23:37] <barcode_> makes it easier to deal with
[23:37] > perception of threat mobilizes violence
[23:37] <barcode_> as well as groups too
[23:37] <barcode_> if 500,000 others think this why not u fall in line and don't go against the grain
[23:37] > mindstate for pro-war easy because lack of ambiguity
[23:37] > 1st= enemy imagery
[23:37] > 2nd action towards that enemy
[23:37] <barcode_> yea only way to 'disprove' the credible evidence was get in there and findout
[23:37] <barcode_> and now were finding out
[23:38] > 'can't have heroes w/out villians'
[23:38] > recognition of humanity evokes compassion
[23:38] > idea: if better understanding of how we think about enemy, then perhaps less likely to remain enemy
[23:39] > ad nauseum
[23:39] <Vossol_> but bin laden needs love too
[23:39] <Vossol_> and so did the 9/11 guys
[23:39] <Vossol_> so, do we always do nothing to agressors ?
[23:39] <barcode_> yea thats why they did it out of hate
[23:39] <barcode_> tough decision and very fine line
[23:39] > what's necessary is to address the fundamental reason for the hatred
[23:40] > and to work at fixing things in that manner
[23:40] <barcode_> been like this a long time though
[23:40] <barcode_> these religions haven't gotten along either in the past 500 or more years
[23:40] > hard to call saddam aggressor w/ regards to the US
[23:40] > that has been programmed into our head
[23:40] > but its simply not accurate
[23:40] > imo
[23:41] <Vossol_> and what did the jews do to hitler and pre-ww2 germany? did the jews need to change or appease hilter and germany in some way ?
[23:41] <barcode_> no but do i think he's fostering good things over there no
[23:42] <barcode_> nothing but both peoples suffered
[23:42] <barcode_> the victims of iraqui warcrimes and germanys as well
[23:42] > not sure how to respond re hitler
[23:42] > i don't think appease is an appropriate verb
[23:42] > i would say reconcile
[23:43] > they're all pissed cuz the US way of living is infringing on their culture
[23:43] > that's the root cause imo
[23:43] <barcode_> yea same here
[23:43] <barcode_> i believe it shoulda been handled via black ops to forcec regime change or sumpin secret
[23:43] <barcode_> not a full scale war
[23:44] > totally agree re covert op
[23:44] > but apparently that wasn't acceptable, or 'legal'
[23:45] <barcode_> i also thing bush was swayed by bush sr. cuz family and more dividing procecss and demorilization
[23:45] <Vossol_> reconciling takes a long, long time
[23:45] > yeap for sure
[23:45] > its lengthy process
[23:45] <Vossol_> ku klux klan and blacks haven't fully reconciled over 150 years
[23:45] > takes generations prolly
[23:46] <Vossol_> would it have been a good idea to wait generations to reconile germany and the jews?
[23:46] > bottom line is the manner in which we proactively waged war on saddam has given motivation to 100s more like him
[23:46] <Vossol_> could it have happened sooner?
[23:47] > and idea of what we've done as being a hinderance to the general threat of terrorism can hence not be proven
[23:47] <barcode_> digs: yup further division but war-supporters see this as maybe a way with a model pro-usa thing in the region it will teach people the general idea behind the usa life ya know
[23:47] > seems equally likely to have actually increased the likelihood of more violence
[23:48] <barcode_> yea not a good 'bet' |
