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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank
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To: one_less who wrote (73814)9/3/2003 1:11:25 PM
From: Solon  Read Replies (2) of 82486
 
You seem to have taken some side paths. Allow me, please. We were discussing whether or not dishonesty or deception could be a good and a just character trait. It seemed to me that you had taken the position that lies and deception are ALWAYS bad. My position was that lies and truth may either be good or bad depending on the values they were meant to serve. I gave as examples the Founding Fathers and Undercover Officers; as well, I gave you a metaphor (in the killing of the King's deer) to stand for all those who have fought against tyranny and injustice--and have sought the good through cunning and deceit.

If you believe that deception is ALWAYS bad rather than relative to circumstances and goals, then you may state so now and we will be clear on what you believe. There would still rest upon you the onus of explaining why openness between decent and indecent people trumps justice between them. If you believe (as I do) that both truth and lies may serve the good and the just as well as the injust, then we do not have a disagreement.

If you DO believe that deceit is an immoral quality then it follows that those who use deceit are immoral people (provided they are of sound mind and competence). If you believe (as I do) that deceit may be either moral or immoral depending on the values being served, then we are in full agreement--RIGHT?

If you believe that deception and lies are ALWAYS wrong then you have removed from all decent people a major tool for attaining justice and for opposing tyranny and evil. If you believe that deception is an important tool for decent people to seek justice (such as in the examples given of Undercover Officers, etc.), then I guess we are in agreement.

So you either believe that deception is sometimes good, always good, or never good. I think we can eliminate "always" from rational dispute, so that leaves "sometimes" or "never".
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