Greg you are so very guilty of what you
so readily accuse others of...
You stated that Jesus was NOT talking
about His 'second coming in these verses:
Matthew 16:28 VERILYI say unto you,
There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death,
till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth,
there be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death,
till they see the kingdom of God.
Your 'response' was:
You’re equating the term "coming in his kingdom"
with the "second coming" is where you have erred.
You ASSERT that Greg - but you do not PROVE it.
Simply insisting I am in error is childish at best.
You then EXPLAIN AWAY "coming in his kingdom" by referring to
both to the transfiguration and post-resurrection appearances
While I have already concluded that you will continue to wrest God's truth
on this point - I will attempt to show you why you’re grasping at
those particular straws does not suit what Jesus plainly said.
Jesus said these things IN CONTEXT when He taught that he would return before all of the apostles had died physically.
First Matthew.
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
In verse 16 Peter confesses that Jesus IS the Christ
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Christ informs Peter that he is Blessed of the Father – because Peter knows this by direct revelation from the Father in heaven – a sign of election and salvation
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
At this point Greg one needs to recall that Nicodemus failed to understand that the Kingdom is spiritual and not physical – being born again does not involve your mother’s womb – or your efforts in the flesh. This is the ROCK upon which Christ’s church is built – that the Father reveals the son and His truth to whosoever He chooses.
The flesh profits nothing.
Nicodemus made the same error you make – to look for a physical and carnal kingdom rather than a spiritual one.
Jesus then tells them not to tell anyone who He really is:
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Jesus then begins to explain that His kingdom was not to be accomplish on earth in the flesh with armies or the like but that His kingdom would be accomplish by His ‘surrender”
Many say that of Caesar that “He came – He saw – He conquered” his was a kingdom of this world but of Christ they say “He came – He saw – He surrendered” and yet His kingdom is eternal but not of this world.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
It is at this point and no earlier that Jesus began to explain that He would be crucified but would rise from the dead.
Jesus could have easily been an earthly king as most people suspect He desired or still desires – that is wrong – Jesus avoided that carnal mentality. He will not return and sit on a physical throne in earthly Israel – That error was made by both the Pharisees and the Apostles and most Christians today.
The following verse flies squarely in the face of what most preachers teach today about Christ wanting the Jews to accept Him as king – He did not – that was not God’s purpose ever:
John 6:15 Jesus therefore perceiving that they were about to come and take him by force, to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain himself alone.
Hebrews 11:13 These all died {1} in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. {1) Gr according to}
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Earthly Jerusalem is irrelevant to those who know what the Kingdom truly is.
Back to the text…
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Saving his life ON EARTH will result in losing their life IN HIS KINGDOM .
Christ teaches a letting go of this world – the physical realm – and following Him even if it means physical death in order to enter the Spiritual realm and kingdom. It is a shame that so many are so caught up in a false hope of seeing Christ return to rule in the flesh on earth – That Greg is true error.
The next verse is one that so utterly dispels your hope to delete what Christ taught here that only an extremely stubborn and spiritually blind attitude can ignore it:
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
CHRIST SPEAKS OF COMING IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER
One may loosely explain this by insisting that the transfiguration suits because Christ shone etc…
WITH HIS ANGELS
Some say that the appearance of Elijah and Moses are what is referred to as angels
Reward EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS
This Greg is not explained by either the transfiguration or the post- resurrection appearances.
Rewarding men according to their works is about the Throne of Judgment.
But first let me explain that the Transfiguration cannot be even considered as fulfilling these words:
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Jesus said that there would be SOME that would not die – that means SOME WOULD DIE.
A descriptive adjective must have meaning!!!
At the transfiguration none of those who Jesus spoke to had died – all 12 were alive including Judas. It was only six days later.
If Jesus had meant the transfiguration then all he had to say was ‘there are some standing here that shall see the son of man coming in His Kingdom.’ Comments about passing away physically would NOT be needed – it is obvious to anyone who is willing to be honest with this verse that Jesus had to be talking about something that would happen after SOME had died physically.
Some therefore in their desperate effort to avoid the truth say as you have said that Jesus was referring to the post-resurrection appearances and that the only one that need die is Judas to fulfill the saying.
At least this explanation has one of them being dead – it is not however very satisfying to the essence of what is said. It is much more reasonable to understand that some meant something other than all of them except Judas.
Also look carefully at what Christ said to Peter:
John 21:20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
This was recorded by that “loved disciple” namely John himself. Jesus explained to Peter that he would be martyred before the second coming but that it was none of Peter’s business *if* John should be one of the “some standing here” spoken of earlier. John goes on to say that he was not confident in what had been said concerning him and actually being one of the ‘some’ because of the term "if" but as it turns out John did indeed live to see Christ’s return and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and Peter and Paul were both martyred as the “two witnesses’ whose bodies lay in the streets for 3 ½ days. They both tasted death before Christ return – neither of them died in Rome as the Catholic Church has falsely taught for centuries.
The post-resurrection “theory” (to quote your own words back to you) will not work.
It is practically universally agreed that regardless of when men place the second coming that the characteristics of it are:
That Jesus would return:
1. In the Glory of the Father (in a cloud)
2. with an army of angels (bowls of wrath etc.)
3. bringing judgment against the ungodly
4. bring Reward to those who were faithful
All of those elements are contained in what Christ described when He said some would live to see it:
Matthew 16:27 For (for means BECAUSE - BV) the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Jesus was not talking about some ‘foretaste’ that the Disciples would see – He was talking about the actual event as He prophesied in so many other areas of scripture.
Greg.
Jesus told a parable about some unjust vine keepers who when it was TIME to give unto the vineyard owner His due portion and fruit – REFUSED – to do so.
The vineyard owner (God) sent servants (prophets like John the Baptist) to call them into account but rather than submit to God’s truth and give to the vineyard owner His due they killed all of those servants (Matthew 23:34-36) and so finally the owner sent His own Son (Jesus) – The story went on to say that they decided to kill even the son. Jesus asked those men of the CHURCH what they thought God would do to those who had done such.
Luke 20: 14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.
Jesus did speak that parable against them – not some future them. Jesus did return and did require of that Generation all the righteous blood ever spilled upon the earth:
Matthew 23: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
I don’t understand why most people cannot understand the plain words of Christ – perhaps it is because Flesh and Blood cannot receive that which is only received spiritually of the Father.
I live in Christ’s kingdom – just as many have throughout the centuries - while others just wait for it.
Jesus said this:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Jesus was talking about a SPIRITUAL KINGDOM…
Stop trying to climb back into your mother’s womb Greg
John 3: 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him,
How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him,
Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Earthly Israel and Jerusalem were only carnal figures of the true Promised Land.
Your other questions:
RE>>Did the Apostles taste death after they saw the kingdom of God? <<
NO - they were changed in the twinklingof an eye and caught up into that Holy Cloud to be with the Lord forever more
RE>>So then do you think there is death in the Kingdom?<<
Those who are in the kingdom NEVER DIE as Jesus taught although they may experience physical death - the kingdom is not about the physical...
In this you greatly err.
Brain |
