I am pleased to see you will try to take a more mature approach to discussion. I will be even more pleased if you succeed.
"That is not what we were disputing. You have added the timing qualifier, and in essence changed the question half way through the discussion"
You are wrong. It was I who introduced the idea of what he knew personally about Jesus:
"He knew nothing personally about Jesus. He wrote some of what he had heard as a member of the Christian movement. He had not even heard of his "miracles". Apparently, 20 years after Christ there were not yet any miracles for Jesus."
I ought to know what I meant by it. And you ought to know, as well.
I had asserted that the gospels (written decades after the death of Jesus) were not corroborated by any historical evidence. Our discussion about Paul was to the same point: COULD HE CORROBORATE THE GOSPEL TALES OF JESUS AS A REAL MAN--TEACHER AND MIRACLE WORKER--FROM PERSONAL AND DIRECT KNOWLEDGE OF JESUS THE REAL MAN? OR WAS HIS "KNOWLEDGE" OF JESUS REALLY ONLY ABOUT A SPIRITUAL IDEA?
"No one claims that Paul knew Jesus personally before the Crucifixion"
In that case, he cannot corroborate any of the gospel stories. But the fact that he has nothing to say about the events alleged in the gospel stories is sufficient proof of his unawareness of a real Jesus as teacher and healer.
"Your contention was that "He knew nothing personally about Jesus." I see nothing about before the Crucifixion in that statement."
Because BEFORE the crucifixion is WHEN Jesus lived and WHEN he might have had opportunity to KNOW Him personally. If Paul wrote as though he knew anything at all about the events in the birth and life of Jesus, then one could assume he had some personal knowledge, whether true or false. But Paul does not speak, even obliquely, of Jesus as though He had a physical life such as fabled in the gospels.
I am really getting tired of repeating what is so obvious. Are you sure you don't understand any of this?
"It is a straw man to argue that Paul did not know Jesus before the crucifixion when he does not claim that he did."
It is not Paul's claims that are of primary concern, except as they reflect on the claims of Christian apologists whom believe that Paul had personal knowledge of Jesus as teacher and miracle worker as related in the gospels--thus giving the gospels some historical credence. If Paul did not know of Jesus (and he appears to know nothing of the events of His life), then he can hardly corroborate the gospel contention that He actually lived, preached, worked miracles, and cured mental illness by sending demons into pigs. Now, we know Paul did not claim to know anything about a living Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary and Joseph; but the point is that Christian apologists try to assert that the gospels have some credibility because Paul, too, knew about Jesus. Well...he did not know about the Jesus of the gospel writers. Nor did the gospel writers know about Paul. A blinding light and a voice? Hmmmm!
"Paul received direct information from Jesus about His life, death and resurrection and also about the purpose and meaning of the events."
No, he didn't. That is the point. He indicates no awareness of a teacher/healer/vagrant Jesus.
"Jesus is for ever the God/Man and Paul did meet Him."
Paul was blinded by a light and he heard a voice. If this is good enough for you to show that Paul "knew" Jesus and that the gospels are accurate, then I can only hope you are never on a jury!
Have you never wondered why it is that Paul is never mentioned in any of the gospel "histories" of Christ's life?! As they wrote long after Paul they would have known all about his relationship to Jesus and his preaching for His glory--just as they knew all about the life of Jesus! Not a single solitary word!
The gospels were about Jesus and His ministry. What was more important than Jesus's spirit meetings (so you say :-)) with Paul! Why did they not say: "And it came about that Jesus appeared to Paul as a light and this Paul became His biggest fan. And Paul preached and wrote letters to the following churches. And Jesus met in Spirit with Paul several times to direct his path. The last time Jesus met with Paul as a Spirit was during the year____. And then Jesus went to be with the Father and left Paul somewhere in Rome. And this ends the gospel and there was a wind."
"As a matter of fact we will all meet Him; some sooner, some later, some to their great joy and some to their great sorrow."
Good argument. |
