Part I
Transcript: Condoleezza Rice on '60 Minutes'
BRADLEY: Thank you for agreeing to sit down and talk to us, Dr. Rice.
RICE: Nice to be with you.
BRADLEY: The Bush administration's handling of the war on terror is the most talked about and controversial topic in the country these days; hearings are being held here in Washington; books are coming out criticizing the administration's handling of the war. As the National Security Advisor to the President of the United States, how do you feel about all of this?
RICE: I think it's perfectly logical, Ed, that people want to know that their country, their government, is doing everything that it can to protect them from another event like September 11th. I think we have to say that it's very difficult to do in an open society, and we cannot rule out that we might have another attack. Indeed, we know that there are terrorists out there every day trying to pull off another spectacular attack.
But I think it's perfectly logical that people want to know what we're doing -- and we're doing a lot. Since September 11th, we have wrapped up two-thirds of the al Qaeda leadership. The President has liberated 50 million people in Afghanistan and in Iraq. We've taken away their forward-operating bases around the world. We have worldwide cooperation with places like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. We really have terrorism on the run. But this is going to be a long war against terrorism, as the President told the American people just a few days after September 11th.
BRADLEY: Did you watch Richard Clarke's testimony last week?
RICE: I watched parts of it. I had other things to do -- I was meeting with Israeli officials, I was meeting with Russian officials. I had quite a bit to do that day.
BRADLEY: If you didn't see it live, I'm certain that you saw it on the news reports. How did you feel when he made that apology?
RICE: Well, I don't think that there is anyone who is not sorry for the terrible loss that these families endured, and, indeed, who doesn't feel the deep tragedy that the country went through on September 11th.
I do think it's important that we keep focused on who did this to us, because, after all, this was an act of war, Ed. This was an act of war unlike anything that has happened on our territory in 200 years. And al Qaeda is responsible for what happened to us. I think that there are good people in the Clinton administration and in the Bush administration who were, and still are, doing everything that they could to try and avoid any kind of catastrophic attack against the United States. But these are cold-blooded terrorists who will kill innocent life to promote their evil designs and we need to stay focused on that.
But everybody feels the great tragedy that the families endured that day and that the country endured that day.
BRADLEY: But my question is, how did his apology make you feel? Did you think he was grandstanding? Did you think it was sincere?
RICE: I'm not going to question what Dick Clarke was or was not feeling. I think, from my point of view, the families need to know that everybody understands the deep loss. The President went, on the first anniversary of 9/11, out to that field in Pennsylvania; he went to Ground Zero of 9/11 at the World Trade Center; he met with the families, he walked among them. I, took, walked among them and watched them talk about and listened to them talk about and acknowledge the lives of the people that they had lost. Everybody understands the deep tragedy that has happened here.
BRADLEY: One final question on his apology. When he apologized he said, "I failed you, our government failed you -- your government failed you." Will the families of those people who were killed hear an apology from you? Do you think that would be appropriate?
RICE: The families I think have heard from this President that -- and from me, and from me, personally, in some cases -- in that field in Pennsylvania or at the World Trade Center -- how deeply sorry everyone is for the loss that they endured. You couldn't be human and not feel the horror of that day.
We do need to stay focused on what happened to us that day. And the best thing that we can do for the memory of the victims, the best thing that we can do for the future of this country is to focus on those who did this to us. This was no less an act of war than Pearl Harbor was an act of war. We need to stay focused on what it is that we're doing.
BRADLEY: When you look back at the period of time between the inauguration and September 11th, is there anything you wish that you had done differently?
RICE: Ed, I really can't answer that question. We were where we were. I know what we did. I know that shortly after we came into office, I asked the counterterrorism team --which we kept in place from the Clinton administration in order to provide continuity and experience -- we asked them what policy initiatives should we take.
We got a list of policy initiatives; we acted on those policy initiatives. We felt that we were not in a position to have a comprehensive strategy that would not just roll back al Qaeda -- which had been the policy of the Clinton administration -- but we needed a strategy to eliminate al Qaeda. And we put that work into motion. And, in fact, that produced a comprehensive strategy several weeks before 9/11.
But we were working on terrorism from the time that we came here. The fact is that the country was not on war footing about al Qaeda and terrorism until after September 11th . For the eight years of the Clinton administration and for the first eight months of the Bush administration, there was certainly a tremendous understanding of the great dangers of terrorism. There was an understanding that attacks had been made on our forced abroad; that attacks had been made, indeed, in the United States and that more needed to be done to try and avoid attacks in the future.
But we would not be honest with the American people if we said that before 9/11 this country was on war footing. What the President did after 9/11 was to declare war on al Qaeda in ways that had not been done before.
BRADLEY: But do you think that you or the administration made any mistakes, any misjudgments between the inauguration and 9/11?
RICE: I think we did what we knew how to do. We read the threat reporting. The President was briefed by his Director of Central Intelligence, George Tenet, 46 times with items related in one way or another to al Qaeda. His response to that was to say, "I can't swat at flies anymore; I've got to have a comprehensive strategy to take this organization down."
We were discussing the threat spike that took place between June and July, to try and figure out how to respond. Now, to be fair, the threat reporting was all about attacks that might take place abroad -- in the Persian Gulf, or perhaps something against Israel, or perhaps something against the G8 leader's summit that was going to take place in Genoa that summer. And we were responding to that. I called in, along with Andy Card, Dick Clarke on July 5 th and I said, you know, even though none of the threat reporting really is relating to the United States, perhaps you better get the domestic agencies together and see what we need to do to button down the country. And, in fact, the FAA issued warnings as a result of that; the FBI issued warnings; INS and Customs were informed about these threats. But everything pointed to an attack abroad.
BRADLEY: Let's talk for a minute about the 9/11 Commission hearings that were held last week. The commission said that when the Bush administration came into office, you spent eight months considering a new strategy to combat al Qaeda, the Taliban in Afghanistan, but took little action. The commission released findings saying, "The new administration began to develop new policies toward al Qaeda in 2001, but there is no evidence of new work on military capabilities or plans against this enemy before September 11th." Would you agree with that finding?
RICE: The document to which everyone is referring, this new policy that was going to eliminate al Qaeda, that over -- and first of all, Ed, it was a three to five year strategy to eliminate al Qaeda. Nobody is claiming that we intended to invade Afghanistan and push the Taliban out of power. That wasn't on the agenda in the Clinton administration; it frankly was not on the agenda in the Bush administration until after 9/11.
But this document did task the Defense Department to develop contingencies that would give us more robust military options against the Taliban, should we not be able to force them out of power through either intelligence activities or through further diplomacy. So, in fact, there were contingency plans that were to be drawn up by the Defense Department to do precisely that.
BRADLEY: So you disagree with the finding?
RICE: I simply disagree that there was no desire to have military options. One of the really important things here was to have military options that would allow you to go after the Taliban's command and control, after their leadership, to go after their ground forces. And the Defense Department -- actually, before the September 4th document -- was tasked to do that planning.
BRADLEY: Let me take...
RICE: But I'd like to emphasize one thing, Ed. This was a strategy that was a multi-year strategy. Nothing in that strategy was going to prevent 9/11 in the seven months that we were in office.
BRADLEY: But why did it take eight months to come up with a new plan?
RICE: Well, because there was a lot of work to do to come up with a new plan, to develop a strategy that was going to get Pakistan to change its strategic direction. Pakistan is very key in -- and Pakistan had been a supporter of the Taliban. It was important to get the military to do some planning. It was important for a program to be developed that would not just support the Northern Alliance, the opposition that was in the north of the country -- as a matter of fact, locked in less than 10 percent of the north of the country -- we were going to develop a strategy to work also with southern tribes. These were things that were going to take time.
Now, to be fair, some of these ideas had been around since 1998 and they had not been acted on. We thought it was time to bring these ideas together in a comprehensive strategy. I think for a new administration, the seven-and-a-half months is actually not very long, and in the meantime we did everything that we knew how to do to continue pursue al Qaeda: the CIA continued its disruption activities; we continued the work with other governments; all of us were engaged in diplomatic activities -- the President writing a letter to Musharraf of Pakistan. We were engaged every day on the terrorism issue, but we needed to build a new strategy that had a chance this time to eliminate al Qaeda.
BRADLEY: On Thursday, the White House indicated its willingness to have you testify before the commission, as long as your testimony is in private, behind closed doors, and as long as you're not under oath. The Secretary of State, Defense, the Director of the CIA, have all testified in public, under oath, before the commission.
If you can talk to us and other news programs, why can't you talk to the commission in public and under oath?
RICE: Ed, I have been with the commission to answer their questions for more than four hours -- about four hours. I've...
BRADLEY: In private?
RICE: In private. I did not testify, by the way -- and this is an important distinction. I went to meet with the commission, I answered their questions; I'm more than happy to spend as much time as they would like answering further questions. I've made that offer, and we're trying to make arrangements to do that.
Nothing would be better, from my point of view, than to be able to testify. I would really like to do that. But there's an important principle involved here. We have separate branches of government -- the legislative branch and the executive branch. This commission, it takes its authority, derives its authority from the Congress, and it is a long-standing principle that sitting National Security Advisors do not testify before the Congress. And...
BRADLEY: But there is a long list -- not to cut you off, but there is a long list of presidential advisors who have testified before the Congress in public and under oath.
RICE: Well, let me be very clear about this, because the people who -- the only National Security Advisors, sitting National Security Advisors that to our knowledge have testified did so in matters having to do with either criminal intent or criminal allegations, or impropriety -- not on matters of policy. Indeed, Brent Scowcroft and Sandy Berger and Tony Lake and Henry Kissinger have all declined to testify when matters of policy come up because it's important for the President's close, personal staff to not breach this line between the executive and the legislature.
What we do is to find means by which the Congress or its commissions can get all of the information that they want and need from the National Security Advisor. That's why my predecessors have gone, in closed session, to brief or to talk with or to answer questions; that's why I'm prepared to do that again.
But let me be very clear, Ed, I'm not going to say anything in private that I wouldn't say in public. I'm legally bound to tell the truth. I'm morally bound to tell the truth. And so I want to speak with the commission. I know that there are people who are disappointed that I can't. I know, for instance, the families are disappointed that I can't testify, and I'd like very much to meet with the families so that I can answer their questions.
BRADLEY: I mean, I think unfortunately for you there are some people who feel that the administration is hiding behind this executive privilege, that there's something to hide.
RICE: Ed, we have absolutely nothing to hide. I've already spent four hours with the commission. I'll spend many more hours with the commission. And one reason that I'm speaking to the press, by the way, is that one of our constitutional protections is a free press that can ask of national officials anything that the press wishes to ask. And so it's perfectly natural for me to answer, through our free press, questions that might be on the minds of the American people.
BRADLEY: If they subpoena you to testify in public, under oath, will you?
RICE: Ed, I think we're not at that point. And I would certainly hope that everyone understands that this long-standing separation between the President's closest, personal advisors and the Congress has to be maintained. This is not a matter of keeping information from anyone. I'm prepared to go and talk to the commission as often and for as long as they would like.
BRADLEY: But there are some people who look at this and say that this was an unprecedented event; nothing like this ever happened to this country before -- and this is an occasion where you can put that executive privilege aside; it's a big enough issue to talk in public.
RICE: It is an unprecedented event. We've said that many, many times. But this commission is rightly not concentrating on what happened on the day of September 11th. This commission is concentrating on all of the policies that were counterterrorism policies, policies that did not succeed in defeating al Qaeda over a period of a decade. And this commission is rightly looking at the policies that are now being pursued in the war on terrorism.
So this is not a matter of what happened on that day, as extraordinary as it is -- as it was; this is a matter of policy. And we have yet to find an example of a National Security Advisor, sitting National Security Advisor who has been willing to testify on matters of policy.
BRADLEY: In the eyes of the American public, do you think that the credibility of the Bush administration has been at all damaged by your failure to testify in public?
RICE: I sincerely hope that the American people can see -- and that's why I'm here talking to you -- that I want the American people to know the story of what we did before 9/11 and what we're continuing to do now; I want the families to know the story; most importantly, I have an obligation to make sure that the commission knows the story. And I'm going to do everything that I can within the bounds of keeping this very important matter of privilege sacred and without violating it, I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that this story is understood; and that I'm personally willing and able to answer questions from you, in the press -- one of our constitutional protections; and to answer to the commission. And as I've said, I would also be happy to sit down with the families, because I know that for them this has undoubtedly been an extremely intense period and that they may have questions that they'd like to ask.
BRADLEY: But only in private with the commission?
RICE: Well, I will be with them in private, because that, Ed, is the way that my predecessors have bridged this very difficult issue of getting the information to the commission and to the Congress that is needed, without violating the executive privilege.
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