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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group

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To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (135183)6/1/2004 6:12:24 PM
From: Maurice Winn  Read Replies (1) of 281500
 
Jacob, it's nice to see you and Hawk holding hands on killing and imprisonment and slavery. But freedom really is not looking good. It's more cant than reality.

Your Roman example is irrelevant. Rome wasn't a democracy, with the soldiers and citizens voting. With Caesar being turfed out at the next election. It took Brutus to finish him off in assassination.

1...You are plainly wrong that the only person to defend my freedom is me. Apart from the idea of everybody defending their own freedom being silly, specialization is the name of the game. Those who are capable and interested in jobs do them of their own volition. We can't all be in the army and we are not all fit for it.

I am specifically not allowed to defend my own freedom and will be gaoled if I aquire the weaponry to do so. The government tells people to NOT deal with their own security and justice but to call the police and a lawyer. I think they have lawyers in the USA too and taking the law into your own hands is frowned on there as much as here.

Since the main suppression of my freedom is by government, we enter a Goedelian problem of self-referential difficulty. The government is me and is suppressing my freedom so I have to fight me for my freedom... huh?

<1. The only person who can be depended on, to defend your freedom, is you.> It's a nice slogan, but it doesn't make sense. I prefer the slogan, "Don't let a slogan do your thinking for you." Which is also nicely Goedelian.

<2. If you subcontract this work out, you have created a mercenary army who will inevitably oppress you. >

So, how successfully is the USA army oppressing you these days? Have your thought of changing the Commander in Chief to a Libertarian? You do have elections there you know. The USA army is all volunteer and they are doing it for money. To prove that money talks, try paying them with patriotism and slogans and see how many stay on. Some would. Not many. Most are trying to earn a living as best they can at something they think is worthwhile and suits them.

<3. You have replaced "Give me liberty, or give me death" with "What's the going rate, for people willing to die to maintain my life-style?" >

I'm not keen on death or slogans Jacob. Most of us are prepared to tolerate a loss of liberty in the interests of peaceable co-existence. We turn the other cheek, and carry the load on our broad shoulders. I hope to persuade people to vote more sensibly and limit my efforts since they take too much of what I do. But I don't choose the death option, for me or them. If they try to conscript me and try to make me kill people I don't think need killing or put me in a place to be killed, I might be pushed towards choosing their death [the pushers, not mine].

In case you don't realize it, "What's the going rate?" is exactly how we run the world now. I have had jobs which were quite dangerous, simply to get money at the going rate. I was young, strong and capable and the money was worth it.

Money isn't an evil thing. It's just a measuring stick used for exchange of value between freely-choosing people. I don't understand why people think money taints things. You can and do put a value on human life, every day. It's actually quite a low value if you really consider how you spend your money. Most people aren't prepared to face just what a low value they put on other people's lives. It is embarrassing for people who like to consider themselves, good, moral, ethical and all that.

Governments put a direct monetary value on lives to calculate roading needs. If accident rates are high, they do a cost benefit analysis of lives saved, efficiency etc versus the capital cost of the project. Mostly, we go on having deaths. 500 a year in NZ. It's too expensive to make roads safe. The incapable, silly or ignorant are left to die [and sometimes take other people with them].

"Give me freedom or I'll kill you!" I prefer that to "Give me liberty or give me death". But, I don't like icky work these days, so I'll have to take out a contract. What's your rate for suicide? Maybe it's cheaper than hiring an assassin! Or, I could hire you to kill Hawk [because you don't really agree with him much] and him to kill you, then not have to pay either as you both go down in a blaze of gunfire, or Kung Fu, or whatever weapons you choose.

Hmmm, hang on, that wouldn't work because I'd have to pay you a LOT to kill Hawk because you aren't keen on killing but you might win outright. UncleWest might take it on and he'd be good at it [if a little elderly now]. But I think he agrees with Hawk, so that might not work either. Any volunteers? Name your price! I need defence of my freedom. Those crazy guys are fixin' to make me serve time in the Gulag.

Mqurice
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