Here are all the parts of the CNN transcipt on the Swift Vets.
A harsh critic of John Kerry's Vietnam war record is out with a brand new book entitle "Unfit For Command." Author John O'Neill is a Texas lawyer and a Vietnam veteran. Joining us now with more on O'Neill and his controversial book, CNN's Brian Todd -- Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this is a very emotional personal story between men who fought in one of America's most divisive wars. And it's by no means coincidental that this story is heating up to fever pitch right now.
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TODD (voice-over): In his final sprint toward a life's ambition, John Kerry puts his wartime past front and center.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I know what kids go through when they're carrying an M-16 in a dangerous place and they can't tell friend from foe.
TODD: But as the campaign enters a heated stretch, Kerry's war record is becoming an increasingly bitter flashpoint.
The new book "Unfit For Command" by John O'Neill seeks to discredit virtually every wartime citation Kerry received, a case O'Neill has been making for years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are we coming forward? Because we were there. We know the truth and we know that this guy is unfit to be commander-in-chief.
TODD: O'Neill is a fellow Vietnam veteran who took command of Kerry's patrol boat after Kerry left and never served with Kerry. To back his claims in the book, O'Neill quotes superior officers, some of whom originally backed Kerry and people who served near Kerry but not on his boat.
About a dozen veterans who did serve on Kerry's boat have lined up to support him. O'Neill asserts that each of Kerry's three Purple Hearts came from self-inflicted or exaggerated wounds.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's impossible 35 years later for these guys to go back and rewrite history. If you go back and look at the citations, look at the award recommendations, look at the fitness reports that were written on John Kerry in real time, they say John Kerry's service in Vietnam was heroic.
TODD: O'Neill strongly disputes Kerry's biographical claims of many incidents in Vietnam including one involving a central figure in the campaign.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've witnessed his bravery and leadership under fire and I know he will make a great commander-in-chief.
TODD: Jim Rassman, official records say, was pulled from a river by a wounded John Kerry on March 13, 1969 as U.S. patrol boats took fire from both banks. Kerry's Bronze Star citation from that incident says Kerry was wounded in the arm from a mine that had exploded near his boat. But O'Neill claims that Kerry wounded himself earlier in the day by mishandling a grenade and in the book O'Neill writes, "in reality, Kerry's boat was on right side of the river when a mine went off on the opposite side." He continues, "there was no other hostile fire." And, quote, "despite the absence of hostile fire, Kerry fled the scene."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is suspicious, it is dishonest, it is based on politics, it is not based on what happened in Vietnam.
TODD: O'Neill acknowledges that Kerry picked up Rassman but later Rassman says he does remember taking fire. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All these rounds came in and John ran up and dropped down on his hands and knees and pulled me over. Had he not come out on that bow, I'd be dead.
TODD: O'Neill's book follows the release of an ad by the group Swift Vote Veterans For Truth. O'Neill serves on the steering committee. Those who appear in the ad also are quoted in the book.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star. I know, I was there, I saw what happened.
TODD: The ad was partially bankrolled by a Texas Republican with ties to Bush aide Karl Rove. The Kerry campaign says none of the veterans in the ad served on Kerry's boat.
Former P.O.W. and Republican Senator John McCain even while campaigning for President Bush, defended John Kerry, telling the Associated Press, quote, "I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable." McCain called on the Bush campaign to condemn the ad. Last Friday, White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan said, quote, "we have not and we will not question Senator Kerry's service in Vietnam."
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TODD: We spoke to an official at the Bush/Cheney campaign this afternoon. He said the campaign would not condemn that particular ad any more than they would others that are produced with so-called soft money. He said they do deploy the use of unregulated money to produce these commercials and the official added, quote, "I've not seen John Kerry condemn any of the ads against President Bush" -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Brian Todd, thanks very much for that report. And joining us now with more on this sensitive subject, John O'Neill. He's in New York, he's the author of this new book and retired U.S. Navy admiral, the former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, Admiral William Crowe. Thanks to both of you for joining us.
John O'Neill, if all of these guys, virtually everyone who served on that Swift boat together with John Kerry and so many of them were at the Democratic convention attesting to his heroics, if they say he did what they believed why should they believe you when you weren't there on his boat or any of the other individuals who you quote in your book?
JOHN O'NEILL, AUTHOR, "UNFIT FOR COMMAND": Wolf, unlike Admiral Crowe, the people in our organization have no partisan tie, we didn't campaign in the last four elections for Democrats. By and large we didn't campaign for anybody, but we were there. There are 254 Swift Boat people who have signed our letter at Swiftvets.com, including 60 Purple Heart winners, for example, and include 17 of the 23 officers who served alongside John Kerry in Antoy. These were in boats literally five and ten yard away. These were people that bond together every night.
BLITZER: Let me interrupt you, John. But were any of them, was one of them on the boat with John Kerry?
O'NEILL: Yes, as a matter of fact, Steve Gardener (ph) who is the guy that broke the story that Kerry lied about Christmas in Cambodia. Steve Gardener was on his boat for the longest time of any enlisted man and he has signed our letter. He's the guy who came forward to demonstrate that Kerry's story that he had been illegally in Cambodia over Christmas Eve was a total falsehood.
BLITZER: All right. Well, let me then ask you this, there's one person that you say served with him on that boat, but there are at least a dozen others who say he was a hero, a commander and they support him. It's 12 against 1.
O'NEILL: Not quite, Wolf. It's 254 against 12. Every single commander of John Kerry in Vietnam has signed our letter condemning him. Almost 17 of the 23 officers that served with him -- these boats operated in convoys of two to six boats, they were yards apart.
In the scene you just showed, for example, Kerry's ad showed all of the boats fleeing and then Kerry coming back. But all of the boats didn't flee Wolf, they couldn't. The three boat had been blown up, it had no screws left. Everybody went to save the three boat and Kerry fled.
BLITZER: Let's let Admiral Crowe respond. Admiral Crow, you served in Vietnam. You're a former Navy Admiral, retired chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. You are a supporter, an active political supporter, now of John Kerry. I want to give you a chance to respond to what John O'Neill writes in his book, and what he's just said.
ADMIRAL WILLIAM CROWE, FRM. JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: Well, the book is a capitulation of the complaints and criticisms they've had all along. It really ads nothing new.
Because of the limits of time, I'd like to speak to the fleeing business. There were other boats there, Mr. O'Neill who I do not know, we enjoy one thing together, neither one of us never saw any of these incidents, neither one of us had ever met Kerry, and the bulk of these 257 people were not on the scene.
If one of the boats fled, under fire and the other boats didn't bring him into account with a senior officer, that makes no sense whatsoever, that defies reason. Fleeing under fire, of course, is a general court martial offense. The Navy has ways to do that. What were these other skippers are doing?
I have gone through all of the records of the action reports, fitness reports, medal citations, comments, also spot action reports, no mention of that whatsoever.
BLITZER: All right. I'm going to let John O'Neill respond. But I want to take a quick commercial break, because we have much more to discuss. A very sensitive subject indeed. We'll hear more from John O'Neill and retired Admiral William Crowe in just a moment.
BLITZER: Welcome back. Let's continue our debate on John Kerry's record as a decorated Vietnam War veteran. Joining us once again, John O'Neill. He's the author of the new book "Unfit For Command."
And retired U.S. Navy Admiral, the former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, William Crowe.
I want you to respond, John O'Neill, to what the Admiral Crow just said before the break, but also in the context of what Senator John McCain, who himself served some six years in a Vietnam prison, a Vietnamese prison. He says that what you and your colleagues are saying is dishonest and dishonorable. But go ahead and respond.
O'NEILL: More than 22 POWs have backed our efforts. More than 60 people who won the Purple Heart in Vietnam signed our letter. And 254 people in our unit, including 17 of the 23 officers that served with Kerry have signed the letter. There's only one that backs Kerry out of 23.
And Admiral Crowe, by the way, has talked to none of them, to the best of my knowledge, and wasn't there -- and wasn't there within four years of the time of these incidents. I've talked to many of them.
BLITZER: Let's let the Admiral Crowe respond to that.
O'NEILL: Can I talk to Rassman.
BLITZER: Yes, hold on one second. We're going to get to that. But let him respond to the specific point you just made -- Admiral.
CROWE: Well, it's inaccurate. I came into Vietnam right after these incidents just as the Admiral Zimall (ph) left. But I don't think the numbers people that didn't see it, or weren't there, that are relying on hearsay, I don't understand the strength of that.
BLITZER: There's some people who suggest, Mr. O'Neill, that what you're angry at John Kerry and your colleagues are angry at him, not so much for what he did during his tour of duty in Vietnam, but for what he did when he came back from Vietnam. He testified against the war, and he threw his ribbons into that pile. Is that a fair suggestion?
O'NEILL: No one is angry at John Kerry for being against the war. People are very upset that he came back and labeled us all war criminals, but that wouldn't cause people to say things falsely. There were three other officers that day on March the 13th, 1969. They all saw what happened. And their accounts are in this book "Unfit For Command" and can be found right at swiftvets.com.
They're not Republicans or Democrats, they saw the ad at the Democratic National Convention in which he said all boats fled and he came back, no man left behind. But they didn't flee, they stayed there. They couldn't flee. The boat had no screws.
BLITZER: Let's let the admiral respond to that. Go ahead admiral.
CROWE: Well, that's a very confused situation. I can find nothing in the records that would suggest that. The war history doesn't say that. As a matter of fact, the two probably prominent impressions that came from the book, is number one, it's a very skillful, political polemic. It's not an account, it's a political polemic. And it is set out to trash John Kerry. In the process, they work over the U.s. Navy and also feel that it is corrupt, et cetera, et cetera.
BLITZER: All right. Let me let Mr. O'Neill respond to that. Go ahead, John.
O'NEILL: Let me tell you, my family was in the U.S. Navy before Admiral Crowe, who was in the Navy for a long time, got involved. My dad graduated in the class on '31, my grandfather taught there, my brothers graduated from there. And it's just false to say that our book trashing the Navy.
The guy who trashed the U.S. Navy was John Kerry, who came back and compared us to the army of Genghis Khan. With respect to the confusion, there's no confusion at all, Admiral. The people that were there, the actual people on the scene, they remember going to the 3 boat that was disabled and seeing no Kerry around.
BLITZER: Go ahead. Admiral, go ahead.
CROWE: Throughout the book it puzzled me in many incidents where you have made these conclusions there are ways for people who are in command of other boats, other units, to make one of the offender accountable, to bring it up to the Navy's attention, to complain about it, to have a voice in action reports, to complain about the medal system. None of that was done.
None of these people in the numbers that you are talking about, raised those suggestions or questions at the time. They came up when, 30 years later, he's running a prominent political office, very, very suspect.
O'NEILL: That's not what happened. Tom Wright...
CROWE: Oh yes, it is.
O'NEILL: Tom Wright, in the book, outlines the conversation that he had with John Kerry, where he asked...
CROWE: More hearsay. O'NEILL: Tom Wright, who is a retired Captain of the United States Navy said, "I will no longer operate with John Kerry. He fires without regard to human life. He's careless. I won't even operate with him." Kerry, then, left.
He was only there 3 months, Admiral. It takes a little while to figure anybody out. They did the best they could.
BLITZER: John O'Neill, I want you to respond. Over the past 24, 48 hours, there have been some serious questions raised about your co- author, Jerry Corsi. They have discovered some comments he's written on various Web sites which appear to be anti-Muslim, anti-Jewish, anti-Catholic. I could read some of them, but we don't have a whole lot of time.
I wonder if you want to disassociate yourself from what he has written.
O'NEILL: Oh, absolutely.
Jerry Corsi acted as sort of an editor of our book. And so instead of attacking the facts of the book with all these people who were in Vietnam with John Kerry, 60 of them, the attack is now on this guy who is an editor. His remarks were inappropriate. He shouldn't have made them. He's a devout Catholic, as a matter of fact. But Jerry Corsi was not in Vietnam, doesn't claim to be. He simply helped us in editing the book.
The 60 people who were with Kerry in Vietnam, this is their book.
BLITZER: All right, but he's listed as the co-author of the book, isn't he?
O'NEILL: He is. And he performed in the same way as Douglas Brinkley or anybody else a function in editing, in -- particularly in the second half of the book, in historical research, because he had done a great deal of research on the anti-war movement, the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, but not in the Vietnam section of the book.
Admiral Crowe, I gave John O'Neill the first world. I'll give you the last. Go ahead.
CROWE: Well, I think there's a lot of myth connected with this thing. If you want a balanced treatment of what -- Kerry's life and particularly in the Navy, you will not get it out of this book. This book is based on hearsay, numerous interviews, some artful writing, but nothing of great evidential impact. The official view doesn't acknowledge any of this.
BLITZER: All right.
We're going to, unfortunately, leave it there, but I'm sure there's going to be plenty of opportunity to continue this debate.
John O'Neill, thanks very much for joining us.
O'NEILL: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Admiral Crowe, thanks to you as well.
O'NEILL: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Thank you. |
