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'Scarborough Country' for August 16
Read the complete transcript to Monday's show
Updated: 9:26 a.m. ET Aug. 17, 2004
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Guest: John O‘Neill, John Hurley, Robert Reich
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST: Tonight, top headline: the battle rages over John Kerry‘s war record. The real deal? It‘s time to separate fact from fiction.
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Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, where no passport is required, and only common sense is allowed.
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Some vets are now saying that John Kerry is a war hero they‘d love to see in the Oval Office. Others are saying that the Kerry legend is based on lies, and that he is unfit for command. But who is telling the truth? We‘re going to cut through the hype and the ideology, give you the facts, and let you decide.
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And then when a sex scandal caused Jack Ryan to drop out of the race for a Illinois senate seat, rising Democratic star Barack Obama seemed unbeatable. But Alan Keyes is here tonight to tell us why he thinks Obama is too radical for the U.S. Senate.
Plus, author Robert Reich is going to be here to tell us why liberals are going to win in the battle for America.
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When it comes to John Kerry‘s war record, what story should we believe? <font color=red>“The Washington Times”<font color=black> Tony Blankley wrote this. <font color=red>“An impartial reader of “Unfit for Command” would have to conclude that the book is either a pack of lies or John Kerry is in fact, a reckless, lying man who misrepresented the facts in order to receive medals he didn‘t deserve, and is indeed unfit to command even a tugboat, let alone the United States military as president.”<font color=black>
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With me now to discuss the book, John O‘Neill, who took over the command of John Kerry‘s swift boat in Vietnam. He‘s also of course the author of <font color=red>“Unfit for Command.”<font color=black> And we also have John Hurley. John is the national director of <font color=blue>Vietnam Veterans for John Kerry<font color=black>.
Gentlemen, I want to thank both of you for being with us tonight. I actually watched you on Friday night. Seemed like more of a food fight than a debate, but you know, this is such an important issue. And I just want to tell you all personally why, for me, this is such an important issue.
It‘s because for guys like me that haven‘t served in the military, but respect the flag, respect our men and women who have served in uniform, I think we should pay great tribute to those who serve in uniform. And when there are issues like this that come forward, I think we need to look into them. It seems telling the truth and who‘s lying, because these facts just don‘t square up.
What I‘m going to try to do tonight is I‘m going to ask you all the questions. I‘m going to try to stay out of the way and let you all go through it calmly, point-by-point. I want to start with a couple of questions, just sort of house cleaning questions to start off.
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John O‘Neill on Friday, you were accused, egad, of being a Texas Republican, and it was strongly suggested that you were doing George W. Bush‘s bidding. I want to ask you first of all, have you talked to anybody in the Bush campaign at any point while putting this book together, or have you had any help or any support whatsoever from the Bush campaign in writing <font color=red>“Unfit For Command?” <font color=black>
JOHN O‘NEILL, AUTHOR, “UNFIT FOR COMMAND”: <font color=red>I‘ve had absolutely no help. If I were a Republican, I‘d be proud to be a Republican. If I were a Democrat, I‘d be proud to be a Democrat. But there are 254 guys that are swiftees that signed our letter. There are over 60 swiftees who participated in and are direct sources for this book. The Navy didn‘t send Republicans or Democrats to An Thoi. It just sent people to An Thoi.
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SCARBOROUGH: John Hurley, let me ask you. Does the Kerry campaign have any information that you know of that the Bush campaign may have helped Mr. O‘Neill, or more importantly, let‘s talk about it more generally. Because things like this are always so hard to prove in politics. Does the Kerry campaign believe that the Bush campaign in any way orchestrated the release of this book, or helped Mr. Hurley or are they just sort of riding this wave?
JOHN HURLEY, VIETNAM VETERANS FOR JOHN KERRY: <font color=blue>No, I think very definitely, they‘ve helped on this, Joe. This effort is financed by a gentleman in Texas who is a strong backer of Republicans in Texas, including George Bush. He has contributed $100,000 to this effort. This is not a grassroots effort, this is a Republican financed effort.
And there‘s no question about it that George Bush has been asked by Senator John McCain, John McCain has called this effort dishonest and dishonorable. And he has asked President Bush to condemn this ad, which the president has refused to do. We‘re still waiting on him.
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SCARBOROUGH: John Hurley, who is the Texas Republican that‘s contributed $100,000 to this effort?
HURLEY: <font color=blue>His name is Bob Perry; he‘s a real estate developer in Texas. He‘s had close ties with George Bush when he was governor of Texas. He has contributed heavily to Republican causes, and Republican campaigns in Texas. Merry Spaeth, who is the director of the communications firm that is supporting this group, has very close ties to the White House, to George Bush, to the Reagan administration. This has Republican campaign effort written all over it, Joe.
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SCARBOROUGH: John O‘Neill, have you had any contacts with Mr. Perry or the woman that Mr. Hurley just discussed?
O‘NEILL: <font color=red>Yes. I know Mr. Perry. We filed a report early, actually, showing that he‘d given $100,000 to our effort. We‘ve collected $450,000 from 5,000 donors over the past six days. We‘ll take money from anyone that we can legally take it from, that doesn‘t include political parties. We have no George Soros, and to get our message out, we need to have people contribute money.
We‘re happy to have anybody contribute money. It‘s simply false to label us as associated with any campaign. To us, this is a matter of personal honor relating to our unit. It‘s not a matter of politics. It‘s ridiculous to think that 254 navy veterans are going to come forward in this way because of anything except the history of their unit and their own integrity.
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SCARBOROUGH: John Hurley, let me move on to another question, a general question before we go into the specifics of this book, the ad, and also the charges against your friend, John Kerry. A lot of Republicans thought the media was unfairly attacking George W. Bush. I guess it was about six months ago when they started questioning his service for the Texas National Guard. Those stories went on for a week or two.
I want to ask you, do you believe, does John Kerry believe, does the Kerry campaign believe that this is an unfair story, that the media should not be paying the attention that it is paying to Mr. O‘Neill‘s book, and that in fact, tonight, I shouldn‘t be talking about it, people shouldn‘t be watching this?
HURLEY: <font color=blue>I don‘t think there‘s any question about that, Joe. I think this is completely based on lies and distortions. I think that this book is a disgrace, and I think that John McCain has it right when he says it‘s dishonest and dishonorable. I‘ll tell you why. I think the book is also cowardly. It‘s cowardly because John O‘Neill would have you believe that he is the authority on John Kerry. He never once met John Kerry in Vietnam. Not once.
He never once interviewed any of the crewmates who served with John Kerry when he won his Silver Star, his Bronze Star or his three Purple Hearts. What he is basically asking you to do, he‘s asking you to go back and look at the world in a different vain. He wants you to believe the world is flat, and that what the United States Navy did in 1969 in awarding John Kerry those medals was completely wrong and fictitious.
And somehow the Navy, which awarded these medals, was somehow duped. It is specious. It is shallow. It is as “The Washington Times,” said, a pack of lies.
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SCARBOROUGH: John O‘Neill, before we go to the specifics of these medals, I know that‘s a very important part of your book, I want you to respond, though, to the charge by Mr. Hurley that you never met John Kerry in Vietnam. You‘ve never—never were close to him. So what you were writing about in this book had really no basis in firsthand fact. Is that true or false?
O‘NEILL: <font color=red>As far as me meeting Kerry in Vietnam, that‘s true. You just showed a picture on the air, Joe, that had 20 officers in it, Kerry in the middle. It‘s the same one they showed at the Democratic National Convention. Only one of those officers supports John Kerry.
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HURLEY: <font color=blue>That‘s not true, John O‘Neill, and you know it.
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O‘NEILL: <font color=red>Let me finish. Twelve of them ...
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(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on a second, guys. Let‘s stop for a second. Mr. O‘Neill, I‘m going to let you finish, and then Mr. Hurley, I‘m going to let you respond. Mr. O‘Neill, while you‘re talking, let‘s show that picture. You talk, Mr. O‘Neill, and then Mr. Hurley, it will be your turn. Go ahead Mr. O‘Neill.
O‘NEILL: <font color=red>There‘s a picture of 20 officers in An Thoi. Two of them are dead. Twelve of them have signed our letter condemning John Kerry, and contributed in one fashion or another to “Unfit for Command.” There is only one officer who backs them. They sometimes claim that there are three. There‘s only one, in addition to John Kerry. The people in that picture, the people whose picture is being used over and over again illicitly all have joined our effort.
As to Senator McCain, he‘s entitled to his own opinion. More than 22 P.O.W.‘s have backed our effort. Listen, we were there. We have 60 people who won the Purple Heart. If anyone in the world has a right to speak to the conduct of our unit. It‘s our guys. We paid for it with blood.
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SCARBOROUGH: John O‘Neill, I want to go back to this picture here. I want to be clear here. Can we show that picture again? It‘s going to take a second. But we‘re going to show the picture. John O‘Neill, I want to get the facts straight, because there‘s a lot of back and forth. You were claiming that only one person in this picture supports John Kerry, is that correct Mr. O‘Neill?
O‘NEILL: <font color=red>That‘s correct. And the picture...
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SCARBOROUGH: And who is the one person? Let‘s get a name.
O‘NEILL: <font color=red>The one person is Skip Barker. He‘s the only one who has openly endorsed John Kerry. An identification of each person and their position can be found on the web site, swiftvets.com.
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SCARBOROUGH: OK. John Hurley, now I want you to respond, because you say that‘s not true. Go ahead.
HURLEY: <font color=blue>It‘s not true, Joe. I don‘t have the picture. I can‘t see it in front of me. But I can tell you there‘s a gentleman in there named Rich Baker and Rich Baker is quite upset that he‘s being portrayed as neutral in this. He has come out, and he has supported John Kerry. He has done it. He lives in Pennsylvania. He has been there. He has been campaigning with John Kerry.
But at the same time, the Swift Boat Veterans want you to believe that he‘s not part of this effort. That is typical of what they‘re doing in this campaign. They are continuing to distort every single issue that they can. If you go back to all of the documents that were written in 1969, you go back to John Kerry‘s fitness reports. You go back to the after action reports. You go back to the medal awards recommendations. You go back to the awards citations themselves. And every single one of those documents approved and authorized by the United States Navy supports John Kerry‘s version of events.
If you also go back and interview, as Mr. O‘Neill did not do, go back and interview the men who served with John Kerry when he was on those swift boats in 1969, the men from the 44 boat, the men from the 94 boat, every single man who was with him when he won a Silver Star, a Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts, every single one of them supports John Kerry.
It is these other swift boat veterans who are now coming back 35 years after the fact, and trying to say to you, hey, it‘s different, the world is flat. You guys got it wrong. The Navy did not get it wrong.
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SCARBOROUGH: So John Hurley—hold on, Mr. O‘Neill. John Hurley, this is a question then again, we—Mr. O‘Neill has said only one person in this picture that John Kerry has used repeatedly, is supporting him. You say there are more. Do you have a number? Is it two, three, five, 10?
HURLEY: <font color=blue>I don‘t have a number, Joe. And I don‘t have the photo in front of me. It is more than what Mr. O‘Neill has claimed. It‘s a continuation of his falsehoods. And this comes in part because he didn‘t do his homework. He and his co-author, Jerome Corsi went off and wrote this book without ever talking to the men who served on those boats with John Kerry. Not one of them.
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SCARBOROUGH: Mr. O‘Neill?
O‘NEILL: <font color=red>As you can see, John Hurley and the Kerry campaign are liars. You are seeing exactly the same thing. You saw that picture. They‘ve had that picture for months. They‘ve used it. They now claim two of the two out of the 20 people support them. They can identify nobody else. We have had on our web site a long time the condemnation of the Kerry campaign by 12 of those people.
In addition, there are four other officers there that condemn it. As to all the ranting and claiming that we didn‘t interview people, that‘s just a bald-faced lie. You can see Mr. Hurley is not even from our squadron. He‘s a professional veteran organizer for Kerry, that‘s was in an engineering battalion. And that‘s because they can‘t find anybody to go on TV from our squadron who will actually come forward and say that anything in the book is not true.
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HURLEY: <font color=blue>What are you talking about? You never met John Kerry!
(CROSSTALK)
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SCARBOROUGH: Gentlemen, hold on a second gentlemen. I‘m going to have to ask you all to hold on. Mr. Hurley, I‘m going to let you respond to that. We‘re going to continue the debate in a minute. We‘re also going to get to the issues that John O‘Neill talks about a great deal in this book, <font color=red>“Unfit for Command”<font color=black>. Talking about obviously the medals, the Bronze Star, the Purple Hearts, the Silver Star.
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Much more ahead on SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY when we return. Also, critics requesting whether Maryland native Alan Keyes has the right to challenge Barack Obama in the Illinois Senate race. Keyes says he not only has the right, but the moral obligation to do so. We‘ll ask him why later on tonight.
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SCARBOROUGH: Is John Kerry unfit for command, or the victim of a political hit job? We‘ll have more on that story when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.
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SCARBOROUGH: Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. Still with me, John O‘Neill and John Hurley. John O‘Neill, let me go back to you. Obviously, the title of your book, “Unfit for Command,” I mean the title itself is a bombshell. I want you to give our viewers the main reason why you believe John Kerry is unfit for command.
O‘NEILL: <font color=red>Yes, there are two reasons why. The smaller reason for us is that he exaggerated the service in Vietnam and lied about it directly. Anyone studying the paper work can tell that. The larger reason is that when he came back to the United States, he falsely accused our unit and many other units of war crimes.
Those are accusations he continued as recently as the Democratic primaries. They were total falsehoods. Tonight in this city, there are more than 60 members of our unit, many of the people who served with him, the whole chain of command all gathered together. They all know truth of it. John Kerry will never have a group of people like that around him.
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SCARBOROUGH: John O‘Neill, I want to ask you a question. It seems to me the reason you wrote this book had more to do with what John Kerry did after he came back from Vietnam, than what he did while he was in Vietnam. Isn‘t it fair to say if John Kerry had not testified before the Foreign Relations Committee in 1971, had not accused U.S. Troops of war crimes, that you probably would not have written this book?
O‘NEILL: <font color=red>The real reason I wrote the book, Joe, I was giving a kidney to my wife, and I began getting millions of calls when I was in the recovery room. And I had to ask myself, as did all the other guys from our unit, would we go through all the hell that was involved in coming forward with the truth about John Kerry? We concluded that for our kids, and our grandkids that this guy would be a totally unfit commander in chief in the war that is going on now.
So we‘re not trying to refight the Vietnam War, but we believe that if you can examine John Kerry‘s actual past, and particularly the way he broke faith with all of us as recently as the book <font color=blue>“Tour of Duty”<font color=red> then everyone would conclude, he would be a terrible commander in chief and that no one in good conscience could approach our kids in Iraq and Afghanistan and say, welcome aboard, here‘s the new commander in chief.
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SCARBOROUGH: You know, John Hurley, a lot of veterans, a lot of military retirees settled in Northwest Florida, that‘s the district that I used to represent in Congress. A lot of these guys I talk to still are angry about what John Kerry said in 1971. Angry about the war crimes claim. Do you think that may be at the heart of this book? May be at the heart of these commercials? May be at the heart of a lot of the seething resentment that we still see in a lot of Vietnam veterans?
HURLEY: <font color=blue>I don‘t, Joe. I think at the heart of this book is a Republican smear campaign that is organized by Republican financiers in Texas by a Republican communications firm in Texas and Mr. O‘Neill. I don‘t think this is about John Kerry as much as it is about presidential politics. We are in a situation now where these guys have remained silent. There‘s been no question about John Kerry‘s medals for 35 years.
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end of part one |
