Bear do you think Max Cleland is a hero?..................
Interview of Max Cleland by Chris Mathews on thursday night.
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MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Former Georgia senator Max Cleland is a Vietnam veteran and a supporter of John Kerry for president.
Senator, why do you think John Kerry put up with this—he held fire for what, days now, if not weeks of these attacks on his war record. Why‘d he come back today?
MAX CLELAND (D-GA), FORMER U.S. SENATOR: Well, he came back today because he‘s a real man. He is an authentic American hero. And you can put up with this stuff only for so long, and then you go out there and say, Look, you know, you want to talk about Vietnam? You want to talk about war? You want to talk about injuries? Come on, George Bush. Let‘s duke this out right now.
I mean, George Bush is hiding behind this swift boat fantasy that is funded out of Texas by multi-millionaires that support George Bush. It‘s about George Bush. And he has set Vietnam veteran against Vietnam veteran here.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CLELAND: That is not fun to watch. Now, our friend, John McCain, fellow Vietnam veteran, has said that this is dishonest and dishonorable and has called upon the president to disavow this ad.
But let‘s go directly to the couple of points just raised. First of all, you don‘t put yourself in for medals. Anywhere—Vietnam, World War II, Korea, whatever. You don‘t put yourself in for medals.
And secondly, it was Jim Rassmann who put John Kerry in for the Silver Star, not the Bronze Star with vida vise (ph). The award was downgraded by someone else. So John Kerry did not put himself in for a medal when he rescued Jim Rassmann. And secondly, the award was actually less than Jim Rassmann recommended.
Third, you don‘t go to war, at least I didn‘t, and I don‘t think John Kerry did or anybody on his crew, saying, Gee, this is a great day to get blown up. This is a terrific plan for my life. I‘m going to get blown up once. Then I‘ll get blown up twice. Then I‘ll get shot three times, and I‘m going to bring that shrapnel home so I can be a war hero. And then, finally, I‘m going to risk my life for some special forces officer in the drink that I don‘t even know.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
CLELAND: But he‘s a fellow American. I‘m going to risk my life for him. And then next, here‘s a B-40 rocket with a—held by a VC, and he‘s going to blow my boat up, and I‘m going to turn in to him and I‘m going to go out and kill him.
MATTHEWS: OK.
CLELAND: Now, that‘s John Kerry at war. And I think that this is incredible, what we‘re seeing here, but it‘s further trash from the George Bush campaign. They tried to trash John McCain, and he knows how that feels.
MATTHEWS: OK. We‘ll be right back with Senator Cleland.
And later, the political war of the campaign ads with Michelle Malkin and Willie Brown.
You‘re watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: This half-hour on HARDBALL, we‘ll talk about the politics of the Vietnam War.
And later, will Democratic Senator Zell Miller‘s key note address to the Republican Convention help show the that President Bush is a uniter or a divider? But first let‘s check with the MSNBC News desk.
(NEWSBREAK)
MATTHEWS: We‘re back with Vietnam veteran and former Georgia Senator Max Cleland. Here‘s, by the way Senator, the new Kerry ad featuring James Rassman, the man the Senator saved.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I‘m John Kerry and I approved this message.
ANNOUNCER: The people attacking John Kerry‘s war record are funded by Bush‘s big money supporters. Listen to someone who was there, the man whose life he saved.
JAMES RASSMAN, VIETNAM VETERAN: It blew me off the boat. All these VietCon were shooting at me. I expected I would be shot. When he pulled me out of the river, he risked his life to save mine.
ANNOUNCER: The Navy documented John Kerry‘s heroism and awarded him the Bronze Star. Today, he still has shrapnel in his leg from his wounds in Vietnam.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well that was pretty powerful.
What do you think is driving these men to come out, like Mr. Thurlow? He seems like a reasonable guy. Why is he so driven to get Kerry out of this race?
CLELAND: I don‘t know. But the American people just saw the truth there. I mean, Jim Rassman was dodging bullets, going under the water, down to the bottom, holding his breath. Coming back up, getting shot at, going back down.
Meanwhile, John Kerry realized he was in the water. Turned the boat around, came back. Rassman tried to climb up the webbing, but he got stuck in it. And that‘s when John Kerry, wounded in the firefight, reached down and pulled him up and saved his life. And Rassman put him in the for the Silver Star. John Kerry won the Bronze Star with (INAUDIBLE) for valor.
And for anybody to try to trash that, or belittle that is beyond me.
MATTHEWS: Why is there so much venom from these 250 guys?
CLELAND: I don‘t know. You know, this is a great country, everybody has got a right to their opinion and to vote the way they want to vote. But why trash somebody‘s record?
MATTHEWS: Because they want to beat him.
CLELAND: Well, yes. But is this what George Bush is all about? That‘s his modus operandi normally. He went after John McCain, challenging his patriotism, me, John Kerry and others came to John McCain‘s defense. And I think there‘s a band of brothers gathering around John Kerry now...
MATTHEWS: Did he go after McCain‘s patriotism?
CLELAND: Yes. He questioned John McCain‘s patriotism in South Carolina. And mine in Georgia. Now that‘s what‘s going on here.
MATTHEWS: Let‘s talk about what‘s really going on right now in this country. We have people fighting in Iraq right now. We‘re going to lose by election day, based upon the way we‘re going, a thousand people will be killed over there. 6,500, a lot of amputees, a lot of really serious woundeds from which they won‘t come back from. They aren‘t just knicks. Why aren‘t we talking about that?
CLELAND: Because it is funded with his Republican cronies out of Texas. This kind of swift boat ad, which puts Vietnam veteran against Vietnam veterans. We ought to be talking about those kids that are losing arms and legs and eyes and full of shrapnel that are coming back from Iraq due to this president‘s failed policies and lack of strategy to win, or strategy to get out.
MATTHEWS: How does John Kerry, you want him to win. I can tell. How does John Kerry avoid this entanglement that these Republicans have got him in to those handlers around Bush, and the president himself, are geniuses in tying him into this little box he‘s been in the last week‘s. Where he‘s fighting about medals or ribbon, or whether it was this medal or that medal, or how deep did that first purple—I mean, he has got him in this defensive mode. I thought incumbents had to play defense?
CLELAND: Well, I think George Bush is putting a lot of flak out there. There that‘s what this is. It all goes back to him, because he cannot stand the real exposition of his record.
MATTHEWS: Why isn‘t the record being the issue?
CLELAND: I think it is. Every night on the evening news, we just saw this, we have turmoil and a mess in Iraq. And that‘s what John Kerry focused on today.
He also said that he won‘t let this distract him from talking about the real issues facing the I country, the lack of jobs in this country. The fact that the president has made abroad more enemies than friends. And we‘re in deep trouble in terms of healthcare. Those are the real issues. And that‘s what John Kerry is going to be talking about.
MATTHEWS: Have you noticed that there‘s a kind of a lingo that these guys, who don‘t like Kerry, keep talking about. They talk about the plan. You dismissed that as pretty ridiculous a minute ago.
CLELAND: My lord!
MATTHEWS: They keep using these terms.
CLELAND: I can‘t believe that anybody would have a plan to get wounded. Why? Especially 1, 2, 3 times. I mean, John Kerry is an authentic American hero, and people in this country know that. And that‘s why George Bush is losing and he never went and he doesn‘t know what it is like the feel the wound. And we need a commander in chief who does.
MATTHEWS: Do you think—I want to ask you the same question, because you‘re a Vietnam veteran, do you think it‘s all right for a president who didn‘t to go war to attack a guy who did on the issue of how he behaved in war?
CLELAND: Not this way. No. There‘s no credibility. If you‘ve not been there, you‘ve not walked in those moccasins, you haven‘t felt a wound in the sting of battle, don‘t criticize somebody who has.
MATTHEWS: Well, how is he doing it? He‘s doing it indirectly, you‘re saying.
CLELAND: Of course he‘s doing it indirectly. He always tries to run a notch above. But this is slime ball politics. And the American people see that.
MATTHEWS: Is this like Willie Horton?
CLELAND: Worse.
MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you very much, Senator Max Cleland. In just a moment. Note, when we requested a representative from the Bush campaign tonight to join us this evening, they did not want to come up against the people on the show. |
