Should God be replaced? Message Board

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Politics : Should God be replaced?

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To: Solon who wrote (18717)	11/25/2004 12:20:45 PM
From: Greg or e	Read Replies (1) of 28931

<<<The D.O.I. is the context in which the constitution was written. It's a Theistic context.>>> "Having had all the evidence point conclusively the other way, you now wish to argue that the DOI had a theistic base!" What evidence???? Only if you ignore the reality of historical and philosophical context and impose an anachronistic fantasy can you come to the conclusion that the Constitution of the United States is an Atheistic document. Talk about "not getting it"! The principals that underline the Constitution are clearly laid out in the Declaration. It was so clear to the framers that they held them to be "SELF EVIDENT" did they all change their minds in the few years that separate the two documents? Give your head a shake. "it was written as a legal document which intended to favor no belief system of any kind but to create a society of justice based on secular laws and reasons" Not favoring any particular religion does not mean that the document was derived without consideration as to the source of the principals that are explicitly laid out in the Declaration and implicitly set out in the Constitution. "those who framed the Constitution did so in order to place justice in the realm of reason which is the only place it can be sought." If you want to examine a truly Atheistic Revolution based solely on reason then you need to look at the French Revolution, not the American. They made "Reason" their goddess and look what happened! Every attempt to establish a truly Atheistic society has simply turned into tyrannical blood bath. "What bothers me is that your capacity to entirely ignore reason and sense is not peculiar to you…that you are the guy driving beside me on the road, bagging my groceries, or delivering my mail." Hey I don't hold it against you when you greet me every time I go to Walmart. :) <<<“Oh??? How about Jesus Christ for one?“>>> "First of all…even the mythological Jesus begged to be spared suffering--and implored to be relieved of death." DT is right; you are up there with the "Bush was behind 911" crowd with your mythtaken theories about the historicity of the Gospels. But that aside; Jesus did not spare himself, he acted in a way that was deleterious to himself for the sake of others and He is almost universally acclaimed (nut-bars like yourself excluded) as being the epitome of moral and ethical excellence. The millions of others who have gone against what is their natural aversion to pain and sacrificed themselves for the sake of others mitigates strongly against your position and points to something higher than simple biology. <<<“How to determine what is ethical absent a Creator is the question being asked“>>> "Asked and answered from my side…but not from yours." Your answer is demonstrably circular and arbitrary. It simply assumes axioms (like justice) by standing on the shoulders of of other Theistic systems and then claims reason alone as it's basis. That's basically dishonest; not that honesty has any intrinsic ethical value within an Atheistic system but it is. "It is not ethical to condemn anyone as criminal simply because they have done an illegal act. I don't want to leave you openings for the games you enjoy playing so I will repeat what is clear from our entire discussion that we are discussing the definition of criminality which relates to conceptions of morality: as Websters says... 2 : a grave offense especially against morality"" <<<"It's not I that is playing word games, that is your forte.">>> We are asking the very question you are assuming the answer to. A criminal is someone who commits a crime or breaks a Law. That's not a word game, that's the primary definition of the word. "Millions are criminals in any war They are not immoral just because a Government or a group murdered them by beheading, or by some other act of mindless social insects." Message 20787665 I'm not sure what point you are trying to make by these discordant nonsensical statements. Why would having your head cut off make you immoral??? Killing in a War is not necessarily immoral or illegal although it could conceivably be both but what has that got to do with the price of eggs? My point was simply that if Societies make their own moral rules then any revolting against the societies laws besides being Criminal is also an act against morality, and hence immoral. You can't have it both ways if you want to be consistent. "the articles of the Constitution are carefully crafted in secular language" Words like rights and justice are metaphysical concepts that must be grounded in something besides a piece of paper to have any real meaning. That "Ground" for the framers of the Constitution is the self evident truth that all men are created Equal by God! That being the case, it behooves any Government to establish and implement Laws that promote that God given Equality (Justice) and the Rights that flow out of that. "you go off into meaningless ranting. I simply said that civilized rationality reflects the mean and not the rare. That is all it CAN do." If that is the case then "What's selected is average. What's average is normal" is very much on point. "Future generations of rational people will be able to inhabit other planets and to leave the most brutal and violent creatures behind--all the insane who are HOLIER than others and who have racial claim--(or is it a Godly claim--far worse)--to the HOLY LAND!" "I don’t have any ideas of Utopia." LOL! I'm sure we will all be treated to an obscure definition of what constitutes Utopian ideals, but your statements say otherwise. My point was/is right on target. <<<It's sad that you are so blinded by your own self righteousness that you can't see that wherever you go...well there you are. Your Utopian ideas have been tried many times and every time they fail because they fail to account for the deep depravity and undying ability for self deception inherent in all humans.>>> "Another meaningless leap into a bewildered state of mind…miles and miles from our discussion." That seems to be your stock answer to avoid dealing with issues. Oh well...

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