Hi michael97123; Re: "There is a big difference taking your own life when impending slaughter for yourself and slavery for your family is whats in store AND strapping on a bomb."
I agree that there is a big difference. My point is simply that you, along with many Americans and most Israelis, are so blinded by your ethnic prejudices, that you are even willing to treat as glorious heroes people who murdered their children and then killed themselves.
Tell me again, did the babies agree to die?
I could point out that killing your family, regardless of the reason, is a violation of Jewish, Christian and Moslem religious law. I could point out that many people in the ancient world spent time as slaves and that it was frequently not a permanent sentence. I could point out that by your (and Nadine's) logic, the Jewish people were remiss in not killing themselves during the Babylonian captivity. I could point out that killing your family instead of letting them be enslaved means that you are preventing your surviving relatives from later purchasing their freedom. I could point out that I can find few and far between examples of heroes who killed their families and then themselves. I could point out that the last thing that Adolf Hitler did was to kill his family and then himself (because he was otherwise facing a life in prison, at best). I can point out all these obvious contradictions to treating the men who murdered their families at Masada as heroes, but you are so blinded by ethnic prejudice that you will continue to treat them as heroes. Basically, you're willing to ignore every shred of morality and law on the path to turn those men into heroes.
Face the facts. You are just as incapable of seeing the difference between right and wrong as far as the things that happened 2000 years ago as you are today.
Under these circumstances, where you are so far gone in your fanaticism that you are willing to worship as heroes men who killed their families, why do you even dream to imagine that you are sufficiently balanced that you can analyze the motivations behind the Palestinians? Your situation is that you treat the actions of the Israelis and their ancestors with infinite compassion, but your compassion does not extend to their enemies. My compassion extends to both sides, I understand why they do what they do. My conclusion is that it is a mess that we would do well to avoid getting involved with. The reason you're so willing to tie our nation to Israel is because you cannot tell the simple difference between right and wrong, if it's a matter of an Arab and a Jew.
Here, make a test. Ask one of your friends what he thinks of someone who kills his children, his wife, and then himself. Nine times out of ten, your friend will say something like "that sounds like the actions of a criminal who got crazy and then is too ashamed to live," not something like "that sounds like the actions of a hero we should all strive to emulate". Then ask him what he thinks if there were hundreds of other men doing the same thing. It's likely that he will say something like "that sounds like a fanatical cult following the orders of the cult leaders." Then, just for kicks, ask him what he would say if they were Moslems who killed their children rather than let the Crusaders take them as slaves or prisoners. What will your friend say then?
Re: "You brought it up. I commented. The end of the story, at least for me."
Too bad. This is a great place for me to make the point that many of us are not treating the Middle East fairly, equally or rationally, but that instead we approach the situation with a man-sized chip on our shoulders. I can understand why you don't want to think about it. It is a massive embarrassment, just like the Arab prisoner scandals.
The basic problem in the Middle East, the reason that there will not be peace there in my lifetime, is that people like you refuse to realize that your compassion is one-sided. The simple fact is that the earth is people with people who act pretty much the same everywhere. And pretty much every group on the planet sanctimoniously thinks that they're God's gift to the universe, as far as morality. It just ain't so.
-- Carl
P.S. Read issues and controversies, here:
religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu |
