Times of the gentiles? Good point. When is the times of the gentiles over? Who are the gentiles now? Christians are grafted into the tree so we are not gentiles, we are jews....the real jews. So who are the gentiles? The nations? Is it the times of the nations that must be fulfilled first? And if we, Christians, are the real jews now then what Israel is partially hardened now? Seems that saying "partially hardened" could indeed refer to some past event as it can't mean Israel today because the true Christians are Israel today. The nation Israel in the ME is what exactly? Is it the favored nation of God today or a massive deception raised up by the god of this world? Satan deceives the nations remember so what we see today is more likely to be a lie than be the truth. So where is the truth and where are the lies? Satan deceives the nations, that's a lot of deception (the whole world).
There is only one way to be saved for the eons Sidney. You must have faith in Jesus Christ. If you have faith in Christ, you are called a believer. In your erroneous statement above, you make no sense. You say that christians (ie believers in Christ) are the new spiritual Israel, then you speculate on who the "gentiles" are? They (the "gentiles)) obviously are coming to Christ as in we are waiting for the last of them to come in. When they come in, ie believe, THEN GOD WILL REMOVE THE STUPOR/BLINDERS FROM THE CHURCH SO THEY MIGHT ALSO BELIEVE???????
Remember, if you claim the church to be Israel, then they can't be believers because they are the ones blinded and waiting for the fullness of the gentiles to come in.
The church is not spiritual Israel. That is a deception.
Romans 11:
1. I am saying, then, Does not God thrust away His people?
Was the church “His people”?
May it not be coming to that! For I also am an Israelite, out of Abraham’s seed, Benjamin’s tribe.
Surely we can see that Paul is speaking of blood here.
2. God does not thrust away His people whom He foreknew.
Chapter 10 ends with God saying that Israel did not hear Him and that they were a stubborn and contradicting people. The blood descendants of Jacob is the subject here, not the church.
Surely you can see that your claim that the church is Israel falls completely on it's face when you take Romans 11 into account.
I told you before that you take one verse that stands alone in the whole bible and make a doctrine out of it.
One verse???????? Now that's funny Sid.
This is from L Ray Smith's site: There are some excellent points in this article. It is an open letter to D James Kennedy and John Hagge (neither answered by the way)
"Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying For even as, through the disobedience of the one man [Adam], the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One [Christ], the many shall be constituted just" (Rom. 5:18-19).
That verse summarizes the who, what, when, where, why, and how of the Gospel.
Although God is now conciliated to mankind because of Christ's sacrifice on Calvary, will mankind ever be conciliated to God, thus bringing about full reconciliation? Absolutely:
"For He is our Peace, Who makes both one [Jews and Gentiles-that's all the people there are in the whole world], and razes the central wall of the barrier (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two [both Jews and Gentiles], in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace; and should be reconciling both in one body to God, through the cross, killing the enmity in it" (Eph. 2:14-16).
Second witness: Christ
"Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him, and He is before all, and all has it cohesion in Him. And He is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first, for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross, through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Col. 1:14-20).
Read it again! "makes both one," "creating the two," "killing the enmity," "every creature," "all created," "in the heaven," "on the earth," "the visible," "the invisible," "all is created," "before all," "all," "in all," "the entire," "to reconcile all," "on the earth," "in the heavens."
Where, pray tell, are the billion of people that you think are left out of this Scripture and are going to burn in Hell Fire for all eternity?
Christ created all and will reconcile all-not only on earth, but also the whole heavenly host!
Do you honesty doubt that Christ "created all?" Do you? How then can you doubt that He will reconcile the same "ALL?" " ... in Him is all created ... and through Him to reconcile all to Him ... "(Col. 1:16-20). The phrase "all things" is not in the original Greek Text. It should simply read: "all," not "all things. It is "faith" that you lack in believing these simple Scriptures!
MORE SCRIPTURAL PROOF FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL
After all of God's punishments and chastisements are meted out, all will be reconciled to God. Death will be abolished (I Cor. 15:26), and all will be vivified and given immortality never to be subject to pain, heartache, or death again. The Scriptures fully substantiate this grand truth.
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is One God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time" (I Tim. 2:3-4).
"I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL [Gk. "the" all] men unto me" (John 12:32).
"That in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11).
Comment: It wouldn't be "to the glory of God" if it were a forced acclimation. Besides I Cor. 12:3 plainly says, " ... no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the holy spirit." To "acclaim" carries the connotation of an heartfelt, voluntary expression.
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified" (I Cor. 15:22).
Comment: "vivified" is from the Greek: Zoopoieo = LIVE-DO, "giving life beyond the reach of death, conferring immortality." The same "all" who are dying in Adam (which includes everyone) is the same "all" who are vivified in Christ (which of necessity includes everyone). Also notice that the "all" are vivified "in" Christ not "out" of Christ, and it's not, "all in Christ are vivified," but rather, "in Christ ... ALL are vivified." The order of words makes a giant difference.
"Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just" (Rom. 5:19).
Comment: This is not a difficult verse to understand. One offense brought condemnation on all mankind and all are constituted sinners. In the same manner ("thus also") through the obedience of the One [Christ] the same "many" are constituted just!
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time" (I Tim. 2:5-6).
"For in Him [Christ] the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile ALL to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Col. 1:20).
"If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire" (I Cor. 3:15).
" ... we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially [but not exclusively] believers. These things be charging and teaching" (I Tim. 4:11).
"For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him" (John 3:17).
" ... God, Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian [before the world began-Authorized]" (I Tim. 1:9).
Comment: Man's salvation was assured before God ever created him. He knew all men would sin. That's why He provided a Saviour. We are saved by "grace" not by anything we do.
"No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day" (John 6:44).
Comment: It is not up to us or anyone to come to Christ. God does the choosing, calling, drawing, etc. " ... the kindness of God is leading you to repentance" (Rom. 2:4).
" ... if One died for the sake of all, consequently all died" (II Cor. 5:14).
Comment: God applies Christ's death and sacrifice to "all men." "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man" (Heb. 2:9).
"And he [Christ] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2).
Comment: Christ IS the propitiation for the sins of the whole world! How can you doubt it? How can you teach contrary to it? He isn't "potentially" the propitiation for the sins of the world. He IS the propitiation for the sins of the world.
"Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation, how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation" (II Cor. 5:18-19).
Comment: This Scripture is clear. God through Christ's sacrifice (Christ's sacrifice carries a whole lot more weight than you ever give Him credit for) is conciliating the whole world to Himself. Do you know what that means? God is "at peace" with mankind. Yes, there are future chastisements and punishments, but the end result has already been accomplished. What the world must yet go through is for their good. But God already knows the end result. All will be saved! However, only "we" have been given this word of reconciliation (that is any of us "we" who believe it).
Notice that God is "not reckoning their offenses to them." Then who is God "reckoning offenses" to? It is to Jesus Christ His Son that He is reckoning the sins of the world. Ver. 21: "For He [God] hath made Him [Christ] to be SIN for us ... "
Pardon me for just a moment, but I want to share with you the emotion that I am feeling at this moment. I cannot believe that I am trying my best to explain the meaning of a verse of Scripture that is so simple, so clear, and so profound to two theologians with Doctors degrees who teach on international television and who do not understand it. This verse is in your Bibles. What do you think this Scripture means if it doesn't mean what it says? I feel like someone trying to convince an astronomer that there really are stars in the heavens and that he should stop denying it and start believing it or get another job.
Look at this again. This is the Word of God. God is "NOT reckoning their [the whole world] offenses to them" (Ver. 19)! He is not doing that. But He IS making His Son Jesus Christ "to BE sin for us." How could God consign the vast majority of humanity to the eternal flames of torture in Hell if He no longer reckons that they have any sins? Of what value is Christ's sacrifice FOR them if they still have to pay their own penalty for all eternity? This verse is talking about the WHOLE WORLD. The sins of the WHOLE WORLD.
But what if all these sinners of the world reject Christ? Of course most people do reject Christ, but they won't always do so. God has not given them belief yet. Remember "every knee will bow and every tongue will acclaim ... to the Glory of God." Of course most don't will to believe God now, but they all will later. " ... for it is GOD Who is operating in you to WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:13).
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men" (I Tim. 4:10).
Comment: God is not the "potential" or "possible" saviour of all men. He is the saviour of all men! I believe Him. I think you should too.
Ver. 11, "These things command and teach." |
