Alan: So according to your philosophy all those in HEll are there temporarily, and eventually hell will have lost its usefulness. What about the fallen angels.? They will be set free also.? What about the generations on the earth before the time of Adam.? They didn't fall.? God said he would replenish the earth with Adam meaning there were populations on the earth in eons past that failed God.
Gregor, please provide scripture for your points.
Hell? If you’re referring to the lake of fire, yes, it is temporary. By definition, the lake of fire is the “second death” (see Rev 20:14). And death itself is to be abolished (2 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 15:26). Collossians 1:20 says that Christ is reconciling "all things" (in the greek, it just says He is reconciling ALL) If the fallen angels and satan are a part of "all" then yes, they too will be reconciled.
Lucifer? HE will be restored to his original position also?
it surely wasn't God's will to see Lucifer fail and fall?
Lucifer? Isaiah 14 does not refer to the adversary. It refers to the king of Babylon (verse 4). It also says in verse 16 “is this the man that made the earth to tremble… satan, the adversary is not a man and is never referred to as a man. Same story in Ezekiel 28. Both of these passages have been used to “prove” that satan was created perfect and “fell” because of pride. But John 8:44 and 1 John 3:8 say that satan was a liar, murderer and sinner “from the beginning”. Adversary is “one who opposes”. If God intended for satan to be perfect and never stray, then God made a mistake in His creation. Impossible. He sees the end from the beginning. He makes no mistakes. He must have intended for satan to oppose from the beginning.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.
Isaiah 54:16 Behold I have ……. And I have created the waster to destroy.
Job 26:13 …….His hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
Proverbs 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for Himself; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Alan: God's will is to see all men saved. My will is to see Tom my golfing buddy to be saved and Harry to be saved. God didn't give them a free will? They cannot choose and make up their own minds? All this doesn't mean that it will happen.
God is all powerful then except where man’s will is concerned?
Man’s will is more powerful than God’s will?
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying my counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure
Is this where you add “unless it conflicts with what men want”.
46:11 I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also bring it to pass.
“Except of course where man’s will overpowers mine.”
“God is a God of extreme patience but not one of limitless patience. He repented that he made man. He repented that He set the Hebrews free when they failed him in the desert.
You obviously did not read the excerpt from my post to Sidney from 2 Corinthians 5:19: God, through Christ’s work on the cross is conciliating the world to Himself, NOT RECKONING THEIR OFFENSES TO THEM Christ has already paid the dues for the entire world. God is no longer at enmity with the world.
Romans 5:18 & 19 Hence then as through one fault, (Adam’s sin) the sentence was unto all men unto condemnation (death), so also through one recovery, the decree of favor, is unto all men (the same all men that were condemned) for righteous acquittal unto life
You fail to recognize what Christ’s sacrifice did. It made all things right with God. Period.
According to your philosophy there are no rewards either. Everyone who runs the race, try hard or not, gets first place too. It's God's will to see those that don't even enter the race get a trophy too. What about those people that want to be punished. They don't get punished.
You sound like the vineyard workers. “It’s not fair, we did this in life, we did that, they didn’t do anything except show up at the end to collect the reward.” Remember, it’s grace, that is to say it’s nothing you do, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8&9. Grace is undeserved favor. It’s OK if you receive it, but not everyone?
There will however be judgment and chastening. And it will not be pleasant. The separation of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25 says the goats will go away into “age during punishment or punishment for the ages”. But the ages will end. 1 Cor. 10:11 and Hebrews 9:26.
Speaking of Hebrews chapter 9, how about verse 27 paraphrased: “it’s appointed to men once to die, then comes judgment”. Judgment, there’s that word that to Christians for years that means eternal punishment. But let’s see what God says about judgment:
Isaiah 26:9 says that “when God’s judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants will learn righteousness”.
There it is, God’s judgments are for corrective purpose, not endless, mindless, meaningless torture. What purpose could God have for torturing people forever? How could that glorify God?
As far as “those people that want to be punished”, I’m not sure I’ve seen anything in scripture where people claim they want to be punished.
Many choose hell voluntarily. They don't get to go? The man that entered Hell and wanted to go back and warn his family. He never argues that he doesn't deserve to be there. All he asked was to be able to return and warn his brothers. Why wasn't he set free. This was Christ telling the story.
This is a parable about the Pharisees falling out of God’s favor. If you’re going to use this parable as instruction, then you don’t have to have faith in Christ, you just have to be poor. And our ultimate destination is not the kingdom of heaven, but Abraham’s bosom. We will still be separated from God and will only be with Abraham. And could you really be happy seeing one of your family members or your friends “tormented”? Why shouldn't I get to live and reign with Christ instead of just going to "Abraham's bosom". And why will I have to see across the chasm and watch people in torment? That can't be conducive to happiness.
For an excellent analysis of this “parable”, see bible-truths.com
You don't correct and punish your children? Why should you. God will work it all out? Choices they make don't affect the rest of their lives? Choices we make don't affect the rest of our eternity?
Of course I punish them. But I sure wouldn’t consign them to an eternity in torment because they didn’t quite grasp what I was trying to teach them. Christ appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus and blinded him. And he was converted instantly. He obviously had heard the gospel before this experience. But it took a personal live visit from Christ Himself to convert Paul. Should He do any less for any other stubborn willed person? He is not calling all at this time. He is calling out a body. A priesthood. When the time is right, He will reveal Himself to all. 1 Timothy 2:5 & 6 says that Christ gave Himself a ransom for all, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME. If Christ paid for all sin, then who has the right to demand a second payment? It’s over. Done. Paid in full. Period.
Is God a respecter of persons? No. And you’d better believe God will work it out. Better Him than us.
If you don’t look at anything else, please look at this: The wages of sin is death. Death is temporary. It will be abolished. That is the work of Christ on the cross.
It really is that simple.
Have a good one Gregor. |
