Hi Hawkmoon; Re: "I don't remember any US soldiers being permitted to vote in any of the recent Iraqi elections."
If the US soldiers weren't there, the government would fall. It's as simple as that.
Re: "And I don't remember any US politicians threatening Sunnis in that first election."
The US government has been bombing the bejesus out of the Sunnis for 12 years.
Re: "If you want to discuss "foreign weapons", then why not discuss the foreign fighters who turn themselves into 4 wheeled Kamikazes seeking to plunge into masses of innocent people?"
What's there to discuss? None of this happened in Iraq before Bush put US troops there. It's been going on now for two and a half years. And I doubt that it will go on for more than a couple years after we leave.
Re: "Do you really believe the "government" the Islamo-Fascists have in store for Iraq will be propped up with peace signs and daisies in rifle barrels?"
You're so naive. What kind of government do you think the Iraqis are going to vote in? Heck, Turkey has an Islamic government despite being far more westernized than Iraq. Look at what happened when Algeria tried to have free elections. And anyway, how the Hell do you think any government on this planet stays in business? Did you see what the US government did at Waco? It is in the universal nature of government to be propped up with rifle barrels. The differences are in degree, not in kind.
Re: "Were not the Taliban a "puppet government" of Pakistan and Bin Ladin, propped up through coercion, violence, and sheer repression?"
Yes, and, if you would recall, I was in support of US actions in Afghanistan. If you will recall, we were welcomed there as liberating heroes. Now that we've been there a bit too long, we're taking casualties at a steadily increasing rate. There comes a time when the best policy is to get out and let the locals who fight it out.
Re: "I'd rather prop up and nurture an unsteady fledgling democracy ANY DAY OF THE YEAR."
(a) Just because a country is a democracy doesn't mean it's a friend of ours. Hitler was elected in a democracy. (b) It is damned unlikely that foreign military force will be able to force a democracy down the throats of a people where there is a large and energetic component who will fight against it. (c) Just a few lines ago you were talking about how the Islamo-Fascists would be using rifle barrels to govern Iraq, now you want to do the same thing. Dead is dead.
Re: "Where we will make a mistake is when we starting looking to propping up specific governments, and not focusing on the electoral will of the people overall."
So you'd have been in favor of our sending troops in to help Hitler after he got fairly elected, but before he illegally took over the reigns of government? And how does your comment jive with all the comments from Cheney and Bush about not letting the Islamists win elections in Iraq?
Re: "We don't have to prop up the government.. But WE DO NEED TO PROP UP THE DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM that is the people's mechanism for changing their governments."
The DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM is well "propped up" by the undeniable fact that the leading nations of the planet govern themselves with it. The remaining nations have slowly fallen into line on the basis of imitation. Democracy has become so legitimate that even the non democratic governments pretend to be democratic. Even Saddam had "elections". History shows that as time goes on, these non democratic governments slowly evolve to democratic ones and our kids don't have to die to make it happen.
China is slowly evolving to democracy. Russia already turned. Spain was recently fascist but slowly changed. While Germany and Japan were crushed in war, in the absence of war they too would have undoubtedly slowly changed. Eastern europe was converted without war. And the Middle east will also slowly be converted without any need for us to stick our noses into the mess.
Hey, you forgot to mention how invading Iraq was going to make all this oil available so that we wouldn't be having to pay as much as $1.30 per gallon for the stuff. Where is all the talk about how oil is the lifeblood of the country? That dream fell apart and now you don't have anything to do but start working on your third thousand soldiers.
October was the worst month in quite a while. I told you when the war began that we'd lose thousands of troops in the inevitable guerilla war. You can see no light at the end of the tunnel. Tunnels are designed to be passed through. You're in a war that was never designed by anyone, but was fallen into based on the same ancient overconfidence that has eventually destroyed every great military power. There is no other entrance. You will eventually have to back out the way you came in. What you're in is a hole, not a tunnel.
Do you think that you are going to militarize the US to the even the level that was not good enough to win the Vietnam war? Already the public thinks the war was a "mistake". It's only a very short trip from that recognition to the recognition that continuing the war is a mistake. Eventually the American public is going to drag you out of that hole.
-- Carl |
