The Sunday Morning Talk Shows (Review)
REDSTATE
By: Mark Kilmer · Section: Other Politics
Jack Murtha on MTP insisted that "we can't win militarily" in Iraq, while on FNS, Don Rumsfeld said that the insurgents know "they can't win militarily." Murtha thinks we'll see a troop drawdown next year in preparations from our 2006 Elections and that though the commanders on the ground tell him that things are going well, he knows that they have to repeat what they're told to say and really think things are terrible.
Joe Biden said on FNS that we have to "produce" and Iraqi constitution just as we "produced" Hamid Karzai. He's also had his staff draw up a compendium of everything he said about the war in Iraq before it began.
FTN host Bob Schieffer acted as if he were commandeering his own show from assistant question asker Liz Bumiller, and he insisted that Republicans were backtracking on their smears of Jack Murtha.
The newsmaker of this week was, of course, Rumsfeld, appearing on every show but the Russert-Murtha confab. The SecDef addressed all sorts of accusations, responding to some better than others. He said he knows Jack Murtha and considers him to be an honorable patriot, but he dismissed Murtha's diatribe by not really discussing it. (And I'm certainly not arguing that it deserved a point-by-point discussion.)
JACK MURTHA ON MTP. We've all had a crash course in the new Jack Murtha, superstar, host Tim Russert's first guest on NBC's Meet the Press. Russert introduced the Pennsylvania Democrat Congressman by describing him, accurately, as a decorated veteran and longtime marine. Russert asked, in the intro, why Murtha had "suddenly changed his heart."
For his part, Murtha said that he hoped had had "opened the door to a dialogue." I sensed that he had toned down his fuming remarks, but Murtha spouted that we were making no progress in Iraq and that "we can't win militarily." We have to bring our troops home.
Russert said that his analysts had told him that only 700 Iraqis were capable of functioning without U.S. assistance. How were these 700 going to defend Iraq? Murtha countered that we cannot measure the Iraqis by our standards, implying that many more Iraqi troops are capable but not by the high U.S. standards: "They'll have to win it themselves. It's their country."
Russert described this as a "huge evolution" in Murtha's thinking and quoted from a Murtha book in which the Congressman insisting that running away would be disastrous. What has changed between then and now? Murtha responded that we've made no progress. He said that the commanders on the ground in Iraq to whom he's spoken "say what they have to," but that he "can tell" that it's not what they mean, that things are far worse than what they depict.
Russert asked Murtha if the people at the Pentagon to whom he spoke felt the same way. Murtha stated that the many people at the Pentagon to whom he speaks "absolutely" support what he is saying, that we have to get out now, and that the field commanders in Iraq are intimidated, "afraid to talk." (Does this mean that the commanders are being forced to lie to the American people?)
Murtha held that the President "should be furious" at the intell people for not getting it right. He accused President Bush of being "overly optimistic, illusional." He spoke of seeing our troops so disfigured that their wives couldn't look at them.
Russert asked him about Rumsfeld's statement that we have adequate troop levels for the mission in Iraq. "Tim, Tim, come on, Tim. They fired Shinseki for saying…" (Most of us are over that particular canard, right?)
"This has been mishandled," Murtha proclaimed, taking a line from Dem foreign policy guru Joe Biden: "We should be firing people."
Asked by Russert if SecDef Rumsfeld should be fired, Murtha said that this was the President's call. He added that he wanted Paul Wolfowitz to be fired and complained that "they promoted him to the World Bank."
Murtha insisted that President George Herbert Walker Bush "knew what he was doing. He was an experienced President."
Murtha blamed Don Rumsfeld for Abu Ghraib.
Murtha said he thinks the troops will be home by 2006. Russert asked if they would be home by Election Day, 2006, and Murtha replied: "You hit the nail on the head." He evidently thinks the President is using the troops for political purposes and will withdraw them to boost the GOP for next elections. This would mean that Murtha's proposal is a political one to counter that "illusional" scenario.
Murtha said that President Bush "exaggerated intelligence," but that no President would deliberately mislead the American people into a war.
SECDEF DON RUMSFELD ON FNS. FOX News Sunday host Chris Wallace's first guest was Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who would not give Wallace a firm number for troops trained in Iraq. He did say that the "numbers are improving every single day," but that looking solely at the numbers "is a mistake."
As for troop levels, Rumsfeld said that while we have 159,000 on the ground in Iraq now, the hope was to draw down to 100,000 after the election on December 15.
Rumsfeld said that Congressman Murtha's views were not widely supported in Congress, but that he has a right to express them. He did suggest that Murtha think of the effect of his words on our troops, on the Iraqi troops, and on the enemy.
JOE BIDEN ON FNS. Happy birthday Joe Biden.
Wallace next talked to the inevitable Joe Biden, the ranking Dem on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Joe Biden said that he "can understand Jack's frustration," but that it would be mistake to bring the troops home before we know there is going to be stability in Iraq: a consensus constitution, a functioning government, infrastructure and sewage, train troops. (He said between 25,000 and 30,000 are trained now.)
Joe Biden said we have to produce an Iraqi constitution "the same way we produced Karzai" in Afghanistan. We "produce a consensus and build from there."
Joe Biden said we have to lower our goal and change the mission from building a representative democracy to stopping Iraq from becoming a haven for terrorists and setting up a functioning government.
Joe Biden said that the Bush Administration has persuaded the American people that we cannot win because "they won't level." He suggested that the President should be like FDR, dragging out maps and pointing to where we are and are not winning.
Wallace played a line from the Cheney speech about Democrats "losing their memories" about what they had said about Saddam before the war. Biden disagreed, asserting that Cheney had screamed about an "imminent threat,'' while he had said that there wasn't one. Biden insisted that the President warned of an "imminent threat" and "mushroom clouds." Wallace pointed out that he hadn't, and Biden insisted that he had and that he, Biden, had never believed it.
Joe Biden announced that he has all of his statements made regarding the war, as gathered by his staff, prior to the war. He promised Wallace a copy.
Joe Biden discussed Judge Sam Alito, explaining that Alito was "on the far side of Constitutional scholarship" for criticizing the Warren Court, Baker v. Carr, and one-man-one-vote. Biden is going to reserve judgment on a filibuster based on "how he answers the questions" about a job application he made 20 years ago when he wanted to work for Ed Meese in the Reagan justice department.
RUMSFELD ON FTN. On CBS's FACE THE NATION, host Bob Schieffer, and the New York Times' Elizabeth Bumiller, first talked to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. Schieffer addressed Jack Murtha's statement and asked Rumsfeld what would be the "terrible consequences" the President alleges if we withdraw all troops in six months. Rumsfeld replied that the enemy would realize that they just had to wait us out. We had to think of what our troops would think if they were told their mission was meaningless, and the Iraqi people would think that they voted for nothing.
Schieffer told him that America would be safer if we pulled out and we would stop the deaths of our troops. Rumsfeld tried to explain the caliphate the Zarqawi wanted to create. Rumsfeld asked if he were certain that the Iraqis would not be able to stop Zarqawi themselves – "you will if you have to." Rumsfeld liked that maxim and said that this was why we were trying not to look like an occupier, to turn over to the Iraqis as much as we could.
Rumsfeld replied to a question that there was "no question" that we were going to withdraw some troops. We'll go down to 138,000 after the election, he said, and we could withdraw more after that. Schieffer asked him if he would recommend this, and Rumsfeld said that the recommendation would be General George Casey's. Bumiller asked if the Administration "had gone too far in its attacks on John Murtha" and the war's opponents. Rumsfeld stayed away from the politics – "I was in Australia" – and "Jack is a fine man. I know him well."
Schieffer wondered if Murtha deserves an apology. Rumsfeld asked why. Schieffer said that Murtha was called a coward. Rumsfeld said that the Congresswoman (Schmidt of Ohio) had apologized, and there were more important things to ask about than these.
Bumiller said that polls show that the majority of Americans agree with Murtha: "Do polls not matter?" Rumsfeld said that polls vary and opinions vary and the American people will eventually come to the right choice.
Schieffer asked if we could withdraw troops if things continue the way they are. Rumsfeld listed the progress, and Schieffer asked: "But what about these explosions, these car bombs. You can't call that progress." Rumsfeld talked about he mass graves with hundreds of thousands of people, and that Zarqawi was killing Iraqis. Zarqawi is losing his support. "He is not winning a popularity contest."
Schieffer had to cut it there, but he thanked Rumsfeld for "always answering our questions," which he said was "something that doesn't always happen here."
LUGAR AND DODD ON FTN. Schieffer next spoke to Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Dick Lugar of Indiana and Senator Chris Dodd (D-Connecticut.) He promised that he would give Elizabeth a "chance to ask some questions" and she asked Senator Dodd if Rumsfeld were lying about Iraq. Dodd said that "despite some of these successes… things were not going well." He said that Jack Murtha's proposal was more complicated than what was voted on Friday, and that no one is closer to the Pentagon than Jack Murtha. Dodd said that the Republican "smears" against Murtha were uncalled for. Schieffer suggested that the White House had backtracked on the smears, and Dodd described it as "moonwalking." Schieffer agreed.
Senator Lugar said that"we have to have hearings" for the public to get information and the Senators to react. He wants to get the President, the Congress, and the public to get on "the same wavelength." Schieffer insisted that this was like Vietnam, where Congress became involved and we left Vietnam. Lugar said that we weren't going to leave.
Bumiller asked if the President had "admitted that mistakes were made in Iraq." Lugar said that he had, and that mistakes were made. Dodd complained that Rumsfeld had appeared 14 times on the Sunday Shows but not once before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
Schieffer brought up Mark Warner's statement last Sunday on FTN that Democrats should drop the line about how we got into Iraq and start talking about what we do now. Dodd said that the "fault line" between the commanders in Iraq and the civilians in the Pentagon was "huge." Lugar admitted that there would be differences of opinion.
Dodd suggested we get troops from other countries, and Lugar said: "Not for the moment… They are not to the point of political commitment to putting troops on the ground." He added, though, that the climate had changed drastically in the "last six months."
DONALD RUMSFELD ON LE. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Joint Chiefs Chairman Pete Pace were the guests on CNN's Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer. Blitzer opened by playing a clip of Jack Murtha's "strong words." He asked Rumsfeld when the troops were coming home.
The Secretary explained that there is a debate, just as there was in World War II, and that Republicans and Democrats had rejected Murtha's proposal. Wolf asked if that were a stunt to embarrass Jack Murtha, and Rumsfeld said: "I don't think that embarrassed John Murtha." Wolf said that Jean Schmidt "basically called him a coward." Rumsfeld said he didn't think that's what was said. Blitzer said that she had quoted from a letter, and Rumsfeld said that maybe Blitzer was right, he didn't know.
Blitzer asked General Pace about troop level. Pace replied that they would get the feedback from the commanders on the ground, "who are always looked at both how to ramp up and to ramp down" troop levels. He rejected the term "exit strategy," referring to it as "turning over" responsibility to the Iraqis.
He explained that while only one Iraqi battalion (500-700) can operate without U.S. support, there are few American battalions who can operate without American support. And that the level of troops – Level 1, 2, 3 --varies from day to day. He said 95 battalions were on the ground.
Blitzer said that only one battalion could operate on its own. There had been three, he insisted, "but it's gone down to one."
Rumsfeld called this a "red herring." It "does a disservice," he said, to discuss the levels because they don't take into account every aspect.
Blitzer quoted from Time Magazine that the military keeps asking for more troops but are "turned down flat."
Rumsfeld said that he hasn't seen the article, but he's fairly certain that some commander somewhere in the past three years has said that they needed more troops and had been turned down. He emphasized that it was "just plain wrong" to claim that a senior officer had requested more troops and had his request rejected.
Pace explained that when he was a commander in Vietnam, he always wanted more troops. It is up to their senior officers to evaluate the situation and the requests, and no senior commanders had requested troops for Iraq and been turned down.
After a commercial break, Blitzer changed the subject to the "pretty horrible" pre-war intelligence. He played a clip from Rumsfeld stating that there were large unaccounted for stockpiles of chemical weapons in Iraq and an active campaign to develop nuclear weapons. Rumsfeld stood by his statement,that the stockpiles were not accounted for and said that we have not been able to determine that there was no nuke problem.
Blitzer played a clip of Rumsfeld stating that there were ties between Saddam and al Qaeda, which Blitzer insisted did not exist. Rumsfeld mentioned Zarqawi. Blitzer asked if Zarqawi were al Qaeda at the time, and Rumsfeld admitted that he probably wasn't. Rumsfeld discussed the conflicting nature of intelligence. Blitzer said that the U.S. went to war because of the WMD and the al Qaeda connection. Rumsfeld explained the reasons the President gave were that Iraq ignored U.N. resolutions, paid terrorists, etc. Blitzer argued that Saddam had been contained by the U.N. sanctions and was no threat. Rumsfeld replied that the sanctions weren't working. Blitzer insisted that Rumsfeld might owe the American people an apology "for all that bad intelligence." Rumsfeld replied that he wasn't involved in intelligence. Blitzer brought up a "separate intelligence" that Rumsfeld had, mentioning Doug Feith, and Rumsfeld said that he didn't think that was separate.
Blitzer played a tape of Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, Colin Powell's former chief of staff, talking about a "cabal" of the Vice President, Rumsfeld, etc. Rumsfeld said that he's never seen Wilkerson. General Pace, who was also at the meetings, said that he "had never seen that person."
Blitzer played that old Cheney clip wherein in the Veep said that the Iraq's insurgency was in its last throes. Does General Pace agree? Pace said they know that things would not go their way and that they aren't going to win, they're desperate. Blitzer brought up "the standard definition of 'last throes'" and indicated that the insurgency was escalating, becoming more sophisticated and lethal.
Rumsfeld said that it "doesn't take a genius to strap on a belt and blow yourself up." He talked about the constitution, the elections, the great things happening in Iraq and added that yes, there would be insurgents.
Blitzer asked Rumsfeld if he sees "light at the end of the tunnel." Rumsfeld said that he doesn't use that phrase. He said that "when we look back a year from now," we'll see that progress was being made. He rejected attacks on the work our troops are doing, and he called it "noble."
RUMSFELD ON TW. George Stephanopoulos talked to Don Rumsfeld on ABC's This Week program. "Let's begin with Congressman Murtha." Indeed. Rumsfeld mentioned that we had had these debates in the past, with past wars, as we should. Put yourself in the shoes, he said, of the Iraqis, of the American soldiers, of the enemy.
Steph mentioned that Murtha claimed to be speaking for the military. Murtha is well-connected with the military, so perhaps Murtha is speaking for them. Rumsfeld said that with a large military, there will be all sorts of views. Steph asked if Murtha were speaking for the commanders, and Rumsfeld said he wasn't.
He told Steph that the Iraqis were taking casualties "at over twice the levels" of coalition troops. Steph reminded that only 700 were able to fight without our help. Rumsfeld pointed out that our own troops need our own help, that Steph's statement was misleading.
Steph argued from a magazine that the United States needed to hire new interpreters, new intelligence, new training for U.S. troops, more U.S. bases in Iraq. Rummy said that he hadn't read the article so does not know how to respond. He told Steph that we have plan, our troops are doing the job, those who try to denigrate them are wrong, and that the Iraqis are doing
Steph brought up a plan General Casey had allegedly sent to him which would have 60,000 troops come home next year. Rumsfeld explained that everything was condition-specific, and that General Casey plans on what to do in which contingency,
Steph said that the insurgency hasn't waned and the number of attacks "has gone up." Rumsfeld explained that the lethality of the attacks had gone up but the number of attacks fluctuates.
Steph wanted to know when we could leave. Rumsfeld explained that as responsibilities are handed over to the Iraqis, which they are every week, we can draw down the number of our troops. As goals are met, our presence can be reduced.
Steph posited that we didn't have enough troops on the ground directly after the invasion. He played a clip of Colin Powell saying recently that we should have had more troops at the time to impose security on the Iraqis. Rumsfeld said that commanders said that they had enough, and he still believes them.
Steph cited TIME magazine about a meeting between Senators and commanders wherin the commanders say they requested more troops but were "turned down flat." Rumsfeld said that he has turned down no one. He said that a local commander may have made the request of Casey and others and they weren't given the allocation. (There are always questions repeated between shows, natch. These shows are not designed to complement each other.)
Steph asked him if he would have advocated invasion if he knew there were no WMD. Rumsfeld said that he never advocated an invasion because he was never asked. Steph asked him if he were trying to distance himself from the war, and Rumsfeld told him not to "even try that." He said that he supported the invasion and he answered specifically that he would have supported the invasion if there were no WMD. Saddam was a nasty guy.
Steph said he wanted to address the question of whether or not the US has advocated torture. Rumsfeld said that this is not a question; the US does not condone torture. Steph brought up the McCain Amendment and asked why the President vetoed it. Rumsfeld said that he doubted Steph were correct. Rumsfeld said that there were "about three version of that," and he was leaving it to the Senate.
"Torture doesn't work," the Secretary said. "The militarily knows that. We want to be treated humanely." And the U.S. military, he said, treats people humanely. He added that Abu Ghraib gives the wrong impression, that such things are commonplace.
He said that we are in a new period, where we have to fight not nation-states but organizations with different capabilities. "A lot of people have their mindset back in the cold war." It's easy for the terrorists to turn, he said, but it's impossible to focus a bureaucracy and the people from one thing to another in an instant. |
