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Pastimes : Ask God

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To: Jamey who wrote (39105)12/13/2005 12:29:20 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Read Replies (1) of 39621
 
Hi James!
I'm an Orthodox Christian. I'm Catholic, but not Roman. I'm evangelical, but not Protestant.

I do agree with your point that "we are saved and kept through the pure grace of God and that alone.". But how is that grace conveyed to the Christian? I think we also agree that it is conveyed through the Holy Spirit. So these principles of agreement are a wonderful starting point for discussion on grace, faith, salvation and the Church.

I believe our different perceptions can be summed up in your following comment: "The one true Church of God is not an organization or a religious body.....It is the Spiritual Church that exists within each believer's heart."

There is a profound truth at the core of this comment. That truth is the fact that the Church is, in, one respect, the mystical (spiritual) body of Christ. But you must not let this truth obscure the equally important reality that the Church Jesus created also has a physical dimension. For example, Jesus chose PHYSICAL Apostles, not just spiritual, to lead and administer the mystical or spiritual Church. Jesus also gave these physical leaders spiritual authority over his mystical or spiritual body. So when Jesus says in John 6: ""18": And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

"19": And I will give unto thee(Apostles) the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."


So Christ is showing us here that the Church has both a physical and spiritual reality. Real men organized in group will be responsible to lead and administer the Church. This is why you have the spiritual gifts of administration, teaching and preaching, etc. The Holy Spirit leads and directs the physical leaders of the Church in administering the grace of God through the mysteries (sacraments (communion, confession, baptism chrismation, etc.) of the Church. When Jesus ordained the sacraments of Holy Communion in the Last Supper, he chose the Apostles to administer the sacramental mystery necessary sactification (power to live the Christian life). In administering the central of these sacraments, Jesus said:

John 6
51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52: The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55: For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.


To administer and follow Jesus' words you need a physical human Church. This is why Jesus chose and ordained the Apostles and gave them authority. Read the fifteenth chapter of Acts and observe how the Holy Spirit uses this physical human leadership to administer his will.

You and I both love the word of God and it's centrality in our Christian Faith. How did the Holy Spirit give us this holy Word of God? He used the physical Apostles and their successors to first write the words and then God used the bishops who succeeded the Apostles to DECIDE which books should be included in the New Testament canon. The very fact that we have a holy divinely inspired bible depended upon both the spiritual reality of the Church as well as the physical reality of apostles and bishops ordained by God. The bible did not simply fall from heaven but was the product of a physical apostolic Church led by the Holy Spirit.

This discussion about the necessity for a god-ordained physical apostolic Church is very important and at the center of our spiritual welfare. When we abandon the apostolic Church, we abandon much of the grace of sanctification. This is NOT merely an intellectual debate or a wrestling match between egos. At the center of this discussion is not only the cleansing of our sins by the blood of Christ but also our sanctification through a constant communion with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This communion provides us with divine manna and nectar from heaven that empowers the Christian with the very life of God to overcome the world and the flesh. It is at the center of not only being Born Again but also learning to appropriate the grace of God in Christ to walk in righteousness, peace and joy. To learn to walk in love, peace, joy and righteousness Jesus has provided the mystical body of Christ with the sanctifying mysteries (sacraments).

Conclusion: If you want to learn to live the fullness of the Christian life, you will need to avail yourself of the grace that Christ provides through the sacraments in his Church.

I'm a convert to the Orthodox Church from the evangelical and charismatic movement. The positive teachings about Jesus and the scriptures I will always cherish. But Protestantism CANNOT bring sanctification because they have abandoned the words of Christ John 6 to partake of the body and blood of Christ. They have abandoned the sacrament of confession, oly matrimony, chrismation, holy orders. Through these sacraments, the grace of God is given for sanctification.

The Church exists in the believers heart but also exists as as an organization of men as Christ created and ordained it.
It was created for the purpose of writing the scriptures, canonizing the scriptures, teaching the scriptures, and administering the grace of God for sanctification of the believers.

May the Lord give you the wisdom and desire to do his will.

In the love of Christ,
Emile
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