Hi TJ, I see you're still on about Tibet, China and the Dalai Lama. You are gyrating wildly in the continuum and your fluctuations are not aligned with the force.
am i to understand you no longer claim tibet was shangri-la in the good old days?
I realize this was not addressed to me, and that there were many problems, but in the grand scheme of things, if you think Tibet was bad there then, you should have been there before. Talk about war-like. Something had to be done and it was. In comparison it became a better place, so you can imagine how bad things must have been to begin with. I have personally heard the Dalai Lama say that Tibet had it’s problems. You claim to seek the truth so there it is.
that the theocracy's systematic destruction of its people should not be revived
The DL has made it abundantly clear that he has no intention of ever returning to Tibet as a Theocratic Head of State, that he himself will undo the institution of the DL in it's old incarnation. Culturally speaking this would be a revolutionay act. Historically, these ideas arrived from India, were further developed by the Tibetans and flourished in the area, until the 1950's. This can hardly be called systematic destruction, simple common sense would infer the opposite. If they were going for systematic destruction they did a pretty lousy job of it. No wonder the Chinese felt that they had to take over.
You seem to be confused as to who did what to whom and when. The systematic destruction you accuse the Tibetans of, as well as that carried out by the Chinese, are conditioned phenomenon, that can be overcome from within the Buddhist system itself, this is the purpose of the system. They have a technology, a systematized knowledge, required to eliminate such suffering. Systems can deepen the very problems they purport to solve and this is a great political problem to this day. I’ve no doubt that terrible things went on, and that in many cases historically, the keys to the kingdom were a closely held secret, but this does not equate to a systematic destruction. I think it's important to make the point that what went on is not intrinsic or a part of the system of Buddhism itself. Liberation is it’s primary systemic feature not the destruction you posit. In this sense systematic destruction of the Tibetan people under monastic rule is a contradiction in terms. Systematic destruction is what your Chinese Imperialists did. You are sounding triumphant, but ultimately you assert inconsistencies that does not stand under analysis. As regards the theocracy, do not confuse the vessel with the nectar. Regarding revivals, right now, there is no-one on the planet that has done more than the Dalai Lama to make Buddhist ideas available to a wider audience. Thanks again go to the Chinese. The DL is the first to acknowledge this.
that its existence as a theocracy run by a framework that was designed in beijing should have been ended
From your article: Several centuries later, the Emperor of China sent an army into Tibet to support the Grand Lama, an ambitious 25-year-old man, who then gave himself the title of Dalai (Ocean) Lama, ruler of all Tibet. Here is a historical irony: the first Dalai Lama was installed by a Chinese army.
Designed in Beijing...gave himself the title ? Hardly. The title was confered by Altan, the Mongolian Khan, and Mongolia was not part of China at this time. You can believe the Chinese sources if you wish but I will stick to mine.
Altan or Anda
died 1583, Mongolia
Mongol khan who terrorized China in the 16th century.
He established a Chinese-style government in his homeland and concluded a peace treaty with Ming-dynasty China in 1571. He converted the Mongols to the reformed, or Dge-lugs-pa, sect of Tibetan Buddhism. In 1578 Altan granted the head of the sect the title of Dalai Lama. With Mongol military aid, later Dalai Lamas crushed the more established Karma-pa (Red Hat) sect in Tibet to become Tibet's spiritual and temporal rulers. See also Gtsang dynasty. britannica.com and During the seventeenth century, the Manchu rose to prominence in the east. They conquered Inner Mongolia in 1636. en.wikipedia.org.
For your guys information, Dalai Lama, does not mean (Ocean) Lama, ruler of all Tibet. It means Ocean of Wisdom and in the case of Tenzin Gyatso, the cap fits. Your man makes a number of errors in his article. Perhaps the best of the rest was this:
after all, the Buddha himself had to be with a woman to reach enlightenment.
Absolute rubbish. In fact the Buddha discovered that he did not need to be with a woman to reach enlightenment. <g>
that the majority of the people there then and now are happy to be liberated
This is obviously your version of having to bomb the village to save it. What evidence do you have for this. What is liberty, freedom and the happiness of the people anyway. Buddhists assert that the personal sense of well being is internally derived and they provide a bunch of techniques that might be helpful. Recent scientific studies are now confirming this age old truth. No matter what the flaws in the current studies are, at present the inference to the best explanation is that external factors, contribute, probably I think, can’t remember exactly, somewhere under twenty percent of a person’s happiness. It’s a funny way to look at it, but this our method and these are the results. I’ve no doubt the Tibetans would be happy to be liberated, just not in the way you mention. For ex. your analysis leaves no room for what might have transpired in terms of the development of a modern Democratic State under the current Dalai Lama. He encourages economic and social progress, but he does not want a Totalitarian State. Just in case, this info has been blocked or re-written where you are, why don’t you pick up a copy of the DL's autobiography at an airport, or something like: Tibet Since 1950: Silence Prison or Exile http://www.hrw.org/pubweb/tibet.html
and that you have therefore no historical basis for anything you may wish for the place now or later
You might want to revisit that notion, CB seems content in her position. The thing I don’t get is, if Tibet always was and always will be Chinese in your scheme of things, then to whom exactly are these terrible misdeeds attributable.
that, in fact, we are at a new beginning ....Wonderful. The universe is subject to change, what else is new.
and as the current dalai lama goes
You don’t seem to have a clue as to how the Dalai Lama goes, at the least you have not presented much evidence to contradict my assertion.
the new dalai lama, chosen with aim to preserve tibetan culture will rightfully rule
Chosen by who, the Chinese, don’t make me laugh.
and that the young dalai lama is in fact chosen within framework of the very first and original dalai lama
By who, the Mongolian King. Please be serious. Mongolia is now a Parliamentary Democracy - does a King even exist. The Chinese have not only disappeared the Panchen Lama, the worlds youngest political prisoner, arrested when he was six years old - impressive - but the framework you posit going forward is directly contradicted by the facts on the ground. Ever since it’s creation, the institution of the Dalai Lama has been perpetuated from within, not from the outside. Yet now apparently, Aug. 20-27, 2007 issue to be exact - In one of history's more absurd acts of totalitarianism, China has banned Buddhist monks in Tibet from reincarnating without government permission. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20227400/site/newsweek/ I can’t believe that a smart guy such as yourself falls for this crap.
just a bunch of pointed questions, all obviously inspired from re-read Message 23963966 in effort to learn and distill the essence of IS
If you are really keen to distill the essence of IS ...I suggest you look further than Mr. Parenti, but if the glove fits go for it.
CHORTLE CHORTLE cackle ooh what fun chuckle........so that we can discuss some more, especially the parts about eye gouging
You sound like you just stole someone's lollipop, real proud. In comparison to ancient, old and modern Tibet, I’m sure that medieval China was just one big picnic, the Cultural Revolution, a piece of cake. I can hear you licking your lips as your heartbeat quickens to the march of Freedom. Didn’t they tell you that mistakes were made. Personally I somehow doubt you’ve experienced the essence of IS, at least it is not apparent from your writing. Advanced Tibetan Buddhists on the other hand, in my experience, seem more qualified to speak about the direct awareness of an unmediated reality, as far as language permits. You seem to be having a wonderful time and there is no doubt in my mind that you’ve earned it, in every way, but since your account and theirs seem to contradict each other what do you think accounts for the differences in this regard.
dalai this and lama that were a convolution originally designed in beijing, way back, and implemented by traders and troops of the son of heaven, in the beginning
What beginning <g> Your disrespect would be pithy if it weren’t so comical. How many times did you post that article, just what was so important – normally it would be called spamming - you’ve earned your bragging rights, so I guess you get a free pass. The DL is a living walking breathing cultural revolution in a class of his own. Your wisdom pales in comparison. Have you ever had a question about Liberty or Liberation or Freedom, that only he or his crew could answer. Have you ever been to his house and seen how lavishly he lives. Just curious.
You are coming off as an apologist for heinous crimes against humanity, not just against the Tibetans, but for a cultural tragedy affecting the worlds heritage. The destruction of countless people, 6500 temples, monasteries, libraries, relics, and almost all works of Art cannot be denied. Sticking your head in the sand won’t make these facts disappear. The persecution, subjugation and torture continues, these are facts on the ground. Just because these hardy fellas have managed to make something out if this, is hardly a testament to Chinese virtue. Lhasa is now almost completely Han. Tibetans are now a minority in their Captial city. Whores surround the Potala. Photographs of the DL are banned, you can get beaten or imprisoned for hanging one in your house. Is your information first hand from Tibetans or in addition to your kool-aid, does the PRC cover your internet and magazine subscriptions as well. If they don't, they might as well.
I don’t think you’ve ever been so enthusiastic about anything. Since your endorsed Michael Parenti’s article so vigorously I guess you agree with his conclusion.
If China is the great success story of speedy free market development, and is to be the model and inspiration for Tibet’s future, then old feudal Tibet indeed may start looking a lot better than it actually was. |
