Hello Leslie,
Another one of those annoying reasoning comments eh, like John Neufeldt's.
1) We have ideas of many things.
Okay, that sounds fair enough.
2) These ideas must arise either from ourselves or from things outside us.
Well, I think they all arise from outside us, but we integrate them in us to produce an external effect, but that even enhances your argument. jfred is the free will guy - not me.
3) One of the ideas we have is the idea of God--an infinite , all-perfect being.
Yep, that is a synthesis of the externalities that we make in our mind to explain it all.
4) This could not have been caused by ourselves , because we know ourselves to be limited and imperfect , and no effect can be greater than its cause.
This bit gets tricky. The idea is caused by our genetic design, interacting with all the experiences we've had. So I agree it is not caused by ourselves. Yep, we are definitely limited - heck, I can hardly remember a phone number, but you don't need that bit for the first bit to be right. Imperfect? Well speak for yourself. I might be aging somewhat, but I'm sure diaphonous damsels would find me desirable. That is near enough to heaven and perfection for me.
No effect can be greater than it's cause? Let's see now. Diaphonous Damsel falls in love with Perfect Gentleman. In a moment of foolishness, they create quite a big effect, yet the cause is quite tiny. Or how about a Mercedes heading for the traffic lights - blow me down if the driver doesn't push the accelerator instead of the brake. The effect on other users of the intersection find quite a substantial effect on their lives due to an injudicious momentary loss of concentration, which might have been as simple as trying to adjust a radio to better listen to Achtung Baby.
5) Therefore , the idea must have been caused by something outside us
Yes, true again, but isn't that what we agreed before?
which has nothing less than the qualities contained in the idea of God.
Yep, if the idea we synthesize from the externalities is God, then that is what the idea is. And the qualities of that idea will reflect the extent of the synthesis from the external world that we create in our minds. But aren't we going in circles already?
6) But only God himself has those qualities.
Course, that is the idea we just made up from the external world. We can't make two ideas out of the same idea - though jfred can.
7) Therefore God himself must be the cause of the idea we have of him.
But what if we made the idea more of a feminine nature than masculine, so my God idea is a lady? I suppose the same reasoning applies. I quite fancy the idea of the biggest woman in the universe of absolute perfection in every respect. Now that would sell me in a second! You sure that all those priests aren't homosexual?
8) Therefore God EXISTS.
Hang hang on, way too fast here. I think we missed 32236 steps between 7 and 8. All we got to is an idea at number 7. We didn't actually have the big lady in the bag. I just got the idea of this perfect lady in my mind and suddenly you have her kicking the door down and she's real. Phew. Of course I wouldn't mind that at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) Every natural , innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.
Tell me about it, to coin a phrase. I have in mind a real object that would go a long way to satisfy some desires I have. Do I what!
2) But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time , nothing on earth , no creature can satisfy.
Well, that is probably true, but what I have in mind is taking up some attention just now. [These stocks and things on Si Investor and Web are extremely interesting and time consuming - but that's fine with me. Fancy feeling really alive in a glowing screen. Heck, I must be a nerd, geek or something.]
No doubt there are many other things, including idle curiosity, but I'll have to keep my hunger, warmth and animal basics in order to maintain energy for the other needs, which you say nothing can satisfy.
3) Therefore there must exist something more than time , earth and creatures , which can satisfy this desire.
Sounds excellent. Bring it on. What exactly was the desire again?
4) This something is what people call "GOD" and "life with God forever."
Wheee haaaa, here she comes again. I see what you mean. But I might be getting ahead of myself. What was the desire again, before I make an even bigger fool of myself? You cognoscenti must be really laughing at my ignorance.
Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for these desires exists. A baby feels hunger; well , there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim; well , there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire ; well , there is such a thing as sex.
Do women fit in there too? I guess used in the sense of men as people in general, but why not just say "people feel s.d." Isn't it just a wish for children though? Which you'd think women would be more keen on than men.
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. ( God , Heaven )
Not necessarily. There are some serial murderers who seem to never be satisfied. Maybe their desire is made for another world. I wish they would go there soon. Maybe other desires are best left unfilled too and are artifacts of some monkey based desires. But what is this desire?
Your reply to Leslie Satterfield: Is that it?
What happened to the punchline? What was the desire? Where's my diaphonous, perfection universe filling lady?
This story has real suspense. Without wishing to be rude, are you a man or a woman? You aren't "She" sneaking up on me are you?
Maurice |
