Freddy, can you refute actual factual points that Hakeem makes? Does it sink in at all that in the examples you cite historically, non-religious rule usually comes in only as the pendulum swings back from utter brutality and savagery inflicted on much of the society by churches themselves?
If you are positing that the values of atheism or a secular society caused all the terror in Russia, or in France during the Revolution, it seems only fair that all of the terror inflicted on Native American "savages" and women during the Middle Ages in Europe would need to be attributed to Christian churches as well. Your continual reference to one minister who saved a few women from death in Salem obscures the reality for many thousands more in Europe. As you will recall, Robbins, your source, concludes that the death toll was probably about 200,000. This is a whole lot of people, almost all women!! I have certainly never held the position that there are no rational or compassionate Christians, only that widespread hysteria and very hateful and polarized, un-Christian acts seem to often result from Christianity:
ucmb.ulb.ac.be
You have given no evidence at all backing your statement about how well women are treated under Christianity, although I cited many passages in the Bible showing prejudice against women. This is a mostly Christian society, and there is domestic violence in 50% of relationships, mostly inflicted by males. Certainly there is a return to even more male dominance advocated by such currently popular Christian groups as the Promise Keepers.
I have heard no acknowledgment from you about the Vatican admitting complicity with the Nazis in France, although it was in all the papers, and I see that further investigation of Gulf War syndrome has been taken away from the military and veterans' affairs departments of the government, because they were perceived as being incapable of an objective study of the problem. These two issues, which we have debated at length, do not seem to be resolving in ways which support your positions on them.
Your insults about modern paganism strike me as very belittling and narrow. Who are you to decide whether someone's belief system is a religion or not? Did Christianity begin with the Big Bang? All religions evolve over time. There is nothing negative or harmful or anything except nurturing and positive in modern paganism. Can you point out in Starhawk's tract something which is evil? I hope you have finally come to understand that Satanism, and Satanic beliefs, cults, etc. have absolutely nothing to to with wicca, and are in fact the dark offshoot of Christianity.
Regarding Celtic cultures, I was referring to tracts written in old Irish, particularly in relationship to the Brehon laws. Do you dispute the authenticity of the Brehon laws, or what? They certainly reflect an affluent, civilized and society with significant rights for women. While the Celts did not write their own history in words, there is a huge amount of data on them not only from the writings of other literate peoples who observed them, but from the archaeological record as well. I find it particularly strange that you tend to deprecate cultures which do not fit into your tight history of western civilization. The Celts were prosperous, wearing clothing woven of plaids, and very ornate jewelry. Women were respected as equals, including their rights to have multiple sexual relationships and to own property. I have a huge book on Celtic culture, full of photographs of the things they manufactured, and their clothing and hairstyles and houses as well. The corpses of Celts who were pulled from European bogs very well preserved hold a wealth of information about their daily lives. I have just ordered an encyclopedia of Celtic stories and poems. It would seem strange that such scholarly works might be fiction!!!
In any event, it seems to me you are about as logical in your arguments as anyone else around here, and sometimes quite myopic when the facts don't suit you. In any event, I am having difficulty understanding why you are so condescending. |
