Zimmerman Tapes: Variations Versus Differences
By Jeralyn,
Posted on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 01:31:56 PM EST
We need another thread to continue the analysis of the George Zimmerman statements, interviews with police and crime-scene re-enactment.
So many were released yesterday, I doubt anyone but true case afficionados have listened to them all. I know I haven't. Yet across the internet, people are cherry-picking, pointing to minor variations as if they are contradictions affecting the totality of George Zimmerman's version of events.
If George Zimmerman told the exact same story over the course of days, people would say it was rehearsed and false. Variations are to be expected, human memory is not like a video recorder, it changes over time. So what is a reasonable test? How about this? [More...]
Forensic document examiners (handwriting experts) compare a known document to an unknown document to determine whether the same person wrote both. The known document might be a letter the person wrote in the past. The unknown document might be the ransom note.
One test for concluding if the same person authored both is whether there are a substantial number of similarities in the absence of a significant dissimilarity. Only a significant dissimilarity is considered a difference. Put another way: Are there are a sufficient number of significant characteristics and an absence of any significant inexplicable differences
A variation is not a difference. It is not a significant dissimilarity. How do these experts tell whether something is a variation or a difference? That's subjective, up to the examiner. (And why handwriting analysis is not considered science -- it's too subjective.)
Here, since we're dealing in the court of public opinion and with opinion not science, we can all be like document examiners.
There may be many variations in George Zimmerman's multiple accounts, but which, if any, amount to a significant dissimilarity that rises to a difference over a variation, and warrants someone concluding the essential elements of his version are not true?
My opinion: This is self-defense. Zimmerman was not the aggressor, he did nothing to provoke Trayvon Martin’s beating him, breaking his nose and slamming his head into concrete. He had every right to respond with deadly force to stop Trayvon’s physical attack on him and to prevent Trayvon from getting control of his weapon.
Here’s my interpretation of George’s version of events, which undoubtedly will be disputed bhy the state. Again, these are not undisputed truths, but my interpretation of George’s version.
George’s suspicion was aroused because he saw someone milling around between houses in the rain. He knew this person didn’t live at the house he was standing by because it had been burglarized before and he knew who lived there. The guy wasn’t exercising. He did nothing to get out of the rain. He thought to himself, who stands out in the rain and stares at houses? He did what the Sanford Police had instructed members of the community to do when they see something suspicious. He called the non-emergency number for the police to report his suspicion.
He pulled over at the clubhouse to make the 911 call. Trayvon walked past him, staring at him and turned down Twin Trees Lane. He drove to Twin Trees Lane while he was still on the phone with the non-emergency dispatcher and parked at the cut-through, in front of the white truck which happens to be located at 1211 Twin Trees Lane. He saw Trayvon go down the path between the shared backyards. Then Trayvon returned and circled his car. The dispatcher tells him police are on their way. George tries to give him directions to where his truck is parked. The dispatcher isn’t understanding him (perhaps because the dispatcher didn’t realize George had moved his car from the clubhouse to the cutthrough.). Then Trayvon took off running. The dispatcher asks him which way Trayvon had gone. He gets out of his car to look. He says toward the other entrance, and confirms to the dispatcher that would be the back entrance. The dispatcher tells him they don’t need him to follow Trayvon, and he says “okay.” But he still wants to tell the dispatcher where he is so the cops can find him, and he doesn’t know the name of the street since there is no street sign. Trayvon had gone off and was out of his sight. He keeps walking to the front of Retreat View Circle to get an address. He had a flashlight but it wasn’t working. His purpose at this point was not to follow Trayvon, who had left the immediate area. He told the dispatcher he would stop following him and he did. He continued walking to Retreat View Circle to get the address for the dispatcher to give the cops who were on their way, and hen he then turned around to walk back to his car.
Just west of the “T” Trayvon appeared out of the darkness and confronted him. He (GZ) was right by the bushes along the side of the house at 1211 Twin Trees Lane. Trayvon was on the shared back path, in back of 1211 Twin Trees Lane. Trayvon confronted George, asking him if he had a problem. He said he didn’t and reached for his phone to call 911. As he reached for his phone, Trayvon punched him, he stumbled. Trayvon got on top of him and started banging his head into the cement. His body was on the grass, his head on the cement. He struggled to get up. As they continued struggling, George was crying out for help. Trayvon put his hands over his mouth and nose and told him to shut the F* up. He thought he was going to lose consciousness. A neighbor behind them (W-6, John, at 1221 Twin Trees Lane) yelled out asking what was going on and if he should call 911. George yelled for help again. He wanted W-6 to help him get away from Trayvon, rather than call 911, because he knew police were already on their way. But W-6 went inside to call 911. No one came to help George as he kept struggling to get out from under Trayvon. W-6 says they were moving as they were struggling, first in the grass, then onto the sidewalk. As George tried to move so his head would be onto the grass and he could get Trayvon’s hands off his mouth and nose, his jacket lifted and his gun was exposed. Trayvon reached for his gun and told him he was going to die.
At that point, in my opinion, anyone in that situation would reasonably fear serious bodily or death. He was unable to extricate himself. He was justified in using deadly force under traditional self defense principles even without Stand Your Ground. But Stand Your Ground also applies. He was in a place he lawfully had a right to be – a public area in his community. He was attacked. He did nothing to provoke a physical assault. He reasonably feared imminent serious bodily injury or death. He had no duty to retreat, but even if he did, since he was unable to extricate himself by any lesser means, he was justified in using lethal force.
George used one arm to pin Trayvon’s hand against him, and with the other, unholstered his gun and shot Trayvon in the chest. Trayvon didn’t die right away. He was still talking, and George thought he missed. He heard Trayvon say something like “You got me.” Not realizing his shot hit Trayvon, and thinking Trayvon had something in his hands he had been using to hit him, he got out from under him and on top of him to separate his arms.
Zimmerman did not violate any law by getting out of his car. He didn’t violate the law by reporting Trayvon as suspicious or trying to keep tabs on him while waiting for police. The dispatcher asked which way he had gone and for an address. It’s perfectly reasonable he would get out of his car to locate one if none was visible from where his car was parked.
He told the dispatcher to have the police call him because he had been unable to explain to the dispatcher where he was located . His truck wasn’t at the mailboxes. It was at the cut-through by Twin Trees Lane. Why should he have to drive it back to the mailboxes? He thought he could better explain where he was to the police when they arrived. There’s no duplicity here or sinister intent.
Trayvon confronted Zimmerman. Both GZ and even phone friend DeeDee say Trayvon initiated the verbal confrontation. Witnesses 11 (the first 911 caller) and her housemate Jeremy , W-20, who live at 1211 Twin Trees Lane, first heard the sounds on the north side of their house, which is to the west of the T. They think it moved around the corner to the back of their house, along the shared path, where they first heard the yells for help. W-11 says in interviews with police the men were moving as they were struggling on the ground. W-6 says he saw them move as they struggled from the grass to the concrete behind his house. Trayvon’s body is situated behind his house. In the re-enactment, George points to 1221 Twin Trees Lane as where the neighbor lived who he asked for help rather than call 911.
W-13, who lives at 2861 Retreat View Circle, also at the top of the T, came out right after the shot. George’s face and the back of his head was bloody. He took the photo of the back of George’s head. When police arrived and handcuffed George, George asked him to call his wife and tell her what happened. He told W-13 he had no choice, he had to shoot Trayvon. W-6 heard George say he acted in self-defense.
Why George followed Trayvon or thought he was suspicious is irrelevant to whether this was self-defense in my opinion. Even if he did follow him, which he denies, instead saying he was looking to see which direction he had gone and for a street address, that is not provocation for a punch in the nose.
While Trayvon didn’t break any law by not going back to where he was staying though he clearly had time to do so, or by remaining at or returning to the area of the “T”, he did commit an act of unlawful force against Zimmerman, ,by attacking him without adequate provocation.
We’ve seen no evidence or witness statement to suggest that GZ intended to capture or detain him for police. There is no witness who saw the initiation of the physical encounter or evidence that GZ initiated either the verbal or physical encounter. There is no evidence we’ve seen that that would justify Trayvon’s physical attack on Zimmerman.
Zimmerman’s injuries are consistent with his version of the attack. Zimmerman says he cried out for help. The witnesses’ statements the night of the event support Zimmerman’s version of events, even as to the struggle beginning at the T and then moving down towards W-6's house.
If the state has no evidence George initiated the verbal confrontation, then the affidavit for probable cause for second degree murder contained a lie. The affiants swore Zimmeman confronted Trayvon and a stuggle ensued. But not a single witness statement says Zimmerman verbally confronted Trayvon. Zimmerman, and even Dee Dee, say Trayvon confronted Zimmerman first, asking why Zimmerman was following him. If the state had no evidence Zimmerman confronted Trayvon before the struggle ensued, that should be dealt with by the Court.
There is no animus or hatred or ill-will in this case. There was a guy hanging out in the rain for no apparent reason, looking at houses, including one that had recently been the subject of a break-in, in a neighborhood in which there had been several recent break-ins. Zimmerman considered and discounted other possibilities – such as that the guy was not wearing workout clothes or exercising. He knew the guy didn't live at the house where he was standing. He could not figure why he wouldn’t try to get out of the rain. He did what Sanford Police told citizens to do: He called the non-emergency number to report him.
I see variations, but I see no significant dissimilarities. I see nothing that amounts to a contradiction or a difference. I see a valid claim of self-defense.
What do you see? And remember to state your opinions as such, and not misrepesent disputed facts as undisputed truths.
talkleft.com
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location of punch ( 5.00 / 1) ( #18)
by Philly on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 03:04:14 PM EST
So either he is punched to the ground where they went down (3 pavements down) and not at the top of the T, or he was punched at the top of the T but did not go down and something else sent them both to the ground where he says they went down. Getting hit in the nose is painful and disorienting. In GZ's walkthrough, he seems honestly confused about exactly how he ended up so far from the T, and even then underestimates the distance traveled. The most likely scenario to me would be: GZ is struck in the nose by the T (consistent across all his accounts and with the location of dropped items.
GZ stumbles forward and there was some "pushing" (noted in reenactment). It's unclear exactly what happened here, but I don't think it matters to his self defense claim. TM may have been attempting to tackle GZ or trip him to the ground. GZ may have been attempting to instinctively clinch with TM.
GZ ends up falling onto his back, with TZ quickly straddling him.
As has been pointed out, even after both were on the ground, the fight was not stationary.
GZ could easily have been unaware of how far he traveled. Events from punch to fall would naturally blur together into one event in his memory, especially if he was off balance throughout. Professional fighters often need to review tape to see exactly what happened. And fighters on the ground rarely realize how far they've moved until they've bumped up against an enclosure.
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it's not my theory ( 5.00 / 2) ( #4)
by Jeralyn on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 02:04:36 PM EST
it's what George said. He thought he shot and missed because Trayvon kept talking. I think shooting once is an indication he wasn't trying to kill him,he was trying to stop the assault against him and prevent himself from being killed which he feared if Trayvon had been able to grab his gun.
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You should look at the police report ( 5.00 / 2) ( #81)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 05:45:33 PM EST
here. 6 rounds in the (7 round) magazine.
1 round in the chamber ( which was removed for safety by the officer).
1 spent casing. There was no gun malfunction. He fired the gun and the next round chambered as it should have.
[ Shows Zimmerman could have fired again had he had killing on his mind. ]
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spent cartridge in the chamber ( none / 0) ( #116)
by pngai on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:41:30 PM EST
I believe I saw that reported by the media but the police report indicates there was no malfunction in the gun at all. In general the media is very sloppy (either out of ignorance or malice or who knows why) when reporting on firearms.
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I agree with both of you. ( 5.00 / 2) ( #103)
by lousy1 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:14:33 PM EST
Additional the concept that GZ is in someway culpable because he was an a participant caught in a chain of circumstance is intellectually lazy. Bad outcomes don't always indicate bad decisions. Occasionally drivers die because they wore a seat belt. That doesn't invalidate the correctness of a decision to buckle up. ..........
Small correction ( 5.00 / 1) ( #108)
by Lina Inverse on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:29:34 PM EST
It was the (white) son of a Stanford police officer who beat the homeless black man. Zimmerman's activism, which last time I checked resulted in charges against the son, makes this case rather strange, e.g. the very officer who arrested him at the scene was one of the one he wanted sanctioned for that mess. So was another responding officer; this prompts me to wonder about the sincerity of the investigator who wanted to charge him. As for his "stupidity", I wonder. If this case hadn't become a cause célèbre his approach with the police would have worked (granted, everyone advises against it). As it is, his lawyer is willing to release all this to the public.... Same goes for the apology; do we think that was made against the recommendation of the lawyer? Some have accused him of being a media hound or the like; I wonder/hope he's playing a deeper game, knowing he has to change the Zeitgeist about the case to ultimately win.
incredible irony ( 5.00 / 1) ( #181)
by lily on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 02:14:27 AM EST
no kidding, yet this fact is lost on the media who has been spoon fed the Julison/Crump/Sharpton narrative. GZ must have been pondering the ramifications of this conflict on the way to the station and during breaks from the interrogations.
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Zimmerman could have drawn the gun first ( none / 0) ( #119)
by Steve27 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:46:24 PM EST
Zimmerman would have been yelling for help if he had drawn his gun before being struck by TM and knocked to the ground. Servino says to Zimmerman he has checked out Trayvon and he was a good kid. Why would a good kid do what Zimmerman says he did? If you are a juror with no info on Trayvon you might have to decide that Zimmerman's account is not credible.
[ If the jury is going to be told Trayvon was a 'good kid,' good student, never got in trouble, etc then Trayvon's character (multiple expulsions, etc) should come into question at the trial. ]
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Contamination ( 3.50 / 2) ( #208)
by whitecap333 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 08:01:50 AM EST
The police interviews introduce, through the "back door," Crump's self-serving representations about Trayvon as a "model youth" and his rosy aspirations for the future. Seems only fair to me that we should be allowed to refer to his interest in "street fighting."
I don't recall ( 3.00 / 3) ( #142)
by whitecap333 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:36:39 PM EST
a plausible explanation for Martin approaching Zimmerman to "check him out." That seems to me rather confrontational, suggesting an absence of fear. We are given to understand, however, that Martin then fled because he feared Zimmerman. Dee Dee claims Martin described Zimmerman as "creepy" and "crazy." I suppose Zimmerman might plausibly be so characterized on the basis of his 2005 "mug shot," but his appearance on the evening of 2/26 was quite nondescript. We have been spoon fed, by the media, a series of images of Martin as lovable child, who would naturally be terrified by the approach of a stranger. Looking at the hulking youth in the 7-11 video, however, I have trouble imagining him fleeing in terror from Zimmerman. His "social media" pages don't make this attempt any easier. I don't pretend to know what was going on in Martin's mind, but I have little difficulty in supposing he might become "confrontational" by reason of a real or imagined affront. Now, just what might Zimmerman's motive be for lashing out at Martin?
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Because it's typical 17 year old behavior ( 3.50 / 2) ( #218)
by Jack203 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 09:33:47 AM EST
Why would Martin confront Zimmerman? I think Occams Razor is that Martin was disrespected for,in his mind, being clearly profiled, and followed. My experience with 17 year olds (I was one not too long ago), especially the type that are suspended 3 times in the last 7 months, the last one for 10 days) is that 17 year olds can be narcissistic, arrogant, brash, emotionally unstable, sensitive, and very easily offended. And how do these type of 17 year olds respond after being disrepected...or "dissed". They get in fights. I wonder if OMara can call a child psychiatrist to the stand to testify the type of typical behavior we would see from a 17 year old suspended from school three times the last 7 months.
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