“I simply pointed out that Solon wrote poems extolling the pleasures of Pederasty and that he formed Laws that endorsed and presented Pederasty as a noble and dignified thing”
Well, he did write poems extolling the pleasures of Pederasty and he did form laws to elevate the practice and preserve it from any immoral failings. So we both agree on that. As you know, pederasty was the embodiment of high morality in Greek culture.
“You're the one claiming "THEY ALL DID IT!"
No. That would be the historians and experts I quoted and linked to! I do not have a clue what they did 2500 years ago except as I examine the research of those who are qualified in cultural anthropology. The evidence shows that, “Greek pederasty, as idealized by the Greeks from Archaic times onward, was a relationship and bond between an adolescent boy and an adult man outside of his immediate family, and was constructed as an aristocratic moral and educational institution. As such, it was seen by the Greeks as an essential element in their culture from the time of Homer onwards.”[1]
So we see that PEDERASTY was ubiquitous in Greek culture. You can say it wasn’t all you want, but it was!!
We also see that it expressed in innumerable ways from city to city and from area to area. for instance, in Sparta it was almost mandatory to be a pederast. But it was considered extremely taboo and immoral to be unchaste.
“Many ancient writers held that Spartan pederasty was chaste, though still erotic.[31] Plutarch also describes the relationships as chaste, and states that it was as unthinkable for a lover to sexually consummate a relationship with his beloved as for a father to do so with his own son.[32] Aelian goes even farther, stating that if any couple succumbed to temptation and indulged in carnal relations, they would have to redeem the affront to the honor of Sparta by either going into exile or taking their own lives.”[33]
Points:
Scholars agree that the culture of pederasty dominated the Grecian city states for about 1000 years.
Scholars agree that the practice was ubiquitous.
Scholars agree it was considered moral by the Greek people and that indeed it highlighted and displayed the moral advantages of the Greek citizenry.
Scholars agree that the practice varied greatly from city to city and from area to area. In Sparta, it was pretty much mandatory to have an erotic affair with a youth and to mentor and guide him. But to be unchaste was to invite self exile or moral suicide. This was one extreme. There was also the practice of Intercrural sex which seemed to be common. And although it was supposedly rare, it appears that some city states allowed the practice of anal intercourse.
Scholars also agree that as the arch stone of their culture, it was the center of much philosophical, political, and educational debate as to just how the relationship should be structured to provide maximum benefit and value to the youth who was being guided into adulthood.
So one suspects that not only did all (or almost all) the poets, playwrights, philosophers, etc. act as mentors to youth--but clearly in their own youth they were initiated into adulthood by an older male. Hard to consider the ugly Socrates being coy and flirting but there you have it!
Scholars also agree that the relationship had to be outside the family and that the father had to approve--much like fathers today approve their daughters relationships--at least in some modern cultures.
Scholars also agree that the classical and the ACADEMIC meaning of pederast is just as the word means and as it was lived for 1000 years of Greek history--love between a mature man and an adolescent--NOT IN ANY WAY LIMITED TO ANAL INTERCOURSE! For centuries, Christians burned and destroyed thousands of books relating to Greek culture and now some modern lay definitions have taken to adding the addendum, “ESPECIALLY’ anal intercourse”. For modern times saying “especially” might not be totally dishonest as it does not remove the true meaning but merely emphasises that modern homosexuality probably lacks most of the philosophical and cultural considerations of the original pederasts.
Having said that, I will now point out that the “list” you tossed onto the post while screaming about Buggery and anal sex only rarely mentioned anal sex (and that being with websters online which had no definition but defined pederast, instead)! There is a modern and lay point of view which caters to religious sentiments but it merely obscures and misrepresents honest research
Sorry. Yelling and screaming fools nobody. I went through the links and tracked down the truth which you tried to bury under false bravado and scrambled links!
Of course, you still have not shared with us why you are trying to restrict the word to anal love instead of boy love when it clearly involved all types of sexual and non sexual eroticism between a mature man and an adolescent? If your goal was to stigmatize the culture of Greece as immoral, then why are you bending yourself and the facts out of shape and sense in order to let the vast majority of them off the hook? Scholars agree that pederasty was the arch stone of Greek culture. It was ubiquitous. It was universal. For 1000 years there were few boys and few men who did not have a pederastic relationship. You claim to consider this immoral but then you turn (no pun intended) and offer your ass as the only guilty place for these Greeks to be--ignoring all the other expressions of pederasty such as Intercrural and oral sex and no sex at all--such as was universal in Sparta.
So the question looms…why do you have a personal need to narrow it down to your anal orifice? This fixation of yours is amusing but it also leads me to sincerely ask you if you had something you are trying to cover up by repeatedly talking about it. This is a common psychiatric defence mechanism and can perhaps best be illustrated to someone as uneducated as yourself by the Poe story, “The Tell-Tale Heart”. Can you not go to your church and…whoops--probably bad idea! -g-
So scholars agree with everything I have said over the last couple of months in response to your fascination with who did what to whom 2500 years ago and in refuting your infantile and ill conceived attacks!
Scholars agree that pederasty was not only universally moral across Greece but was also the moral concern of the wisest of the politicians, philosophers, poets, dramatists, etc. People such as Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Solon--and any other men entrusted with the safety and moral structure of their society and the rights and happiness of the citizenry. |
