Hi koan; Re: "Plato and Socrates were simply examples of the great Greek mind. It was the level of their thinking that mattered. That level was not seen again until the age of enlightenment in the 16th century."
I agree that Plato and Socrates were "simply examples of the great Greek mind" but that's not what we are debating. You claimed that Plato and Socrates were "liberals". I claimed that they were conservatives.
Re: "Using your logic, you would accuse George Washington and Thomas Jefferson as being racist and stupid because they had slaves."
Uh, by modern standards Washington and Jefferson were racists. But in the context of their time they were enlightened on the topic of "should people (i.e. adult white males) be treated equally by law?" And this is why they were considered liberals of the time, by comparison with the British who believed in rule by hereditary monarchy. And of the two, Washington was the more conservative, Jefferson the more liberal.
Regarding Socrates and Plato, I pointed out that they were the more conservative thinkers of the time. Instead of supporting the concepts of liberty and equality, they wrote that a better government would be one by the aristocrats. This is on the conservative side of the spectrum, not the liberal side.
Greek thinkers who were on the liberal side of the idea of liberty and equality would be the leaders of the Democracy. Instead of having the anti-democratic Plato and Socrates as your hero you should have heroes on the opposite side of Socrates and Plato. My favorite is Pericles:
Pericles promoted the arts and literature; it is principally through his efforts that Athens holds the reputation of being the educational and cultural center of the ancient Greek world. He started an ambitious project that generated most of the surviving structures on the Acropolis (including the Parthenon). This project beautified the city, exhibited its glory, and gave work to the people. [2] Pericles also fostered Athenian democracy to such an extent that critics call him a populist.
en.wikipedia.org
In other words, Pericles believed in the concept of democracy of the time, where people (i.e. adult white males who own property) are treated equally. This is the liberal side of Greek thought on government of the time. Plato and Socrates were on the opposite side of this debate. They believed that the people should not govern because the people were stupid and emotional and that instead, government should be controlled by "good" people, i.e. the aristocrats. They were the conservatives of the time.
-- Carl
P.S. You need to recognize that your education in ancient Greek politics is rather thin. |
