"If you are so sure that there is no value in CUU, then why do you bother coming to this board?"
Unlike you, I find value results not from betting on bad management while hoping things might turn around magically by themselves, but from being proven right... from having my analysis be proven as properly grounded, and correct... and, then, as a result, from making the right calls, both in terms of fundamental value and in terms of timing. I've invested considerable time in conducting a proper analysis of Copper Fox... enough time to get it right, apparently. I've been very clear in addressing my view of the "value" here... and I will stick around until proven wrong, or until Copper Fox is dead... as in terms of my own efforts, I define "being right" as "value". As a side note... it's vastly better to learn as much as you can from others failures, rather than your own...
"You have obviously made up your mind that all of the assets owned by CUU are completely worthless and that this stock should go to zero".
No, I've been clear enough from the start that honest analysis revealed that the assets appeared to have value DIFFERENT than what management had been claiming. I've pointed out that management appeared to be deliberately misrepresenting the value... thus misdirecting the focus of the effort... while also admitting that it was possible, instead, that they were merely stupid. My initial posts addressed that with a focus on the WAY management were addressing the "value"... which appeared that it intended to generate a "can't get there from here" result. The work they were doing... appeared it could not connect to providing a proof of what they claimed to be intending to prove. I found that odd... and well worth paying attention to. And, should I note... my analysis was proven correct ?
"If that is the case, then no amount of discussion can make you change your mind since you have already deemed the assets of CUU as completely worthless."
There is nothing of value I see in your approach... nothing that has any potential to change my mind. "Hang on and hope" is not an investment strategy. The assets are not completely worthless. The value they have is not determined... as the effort made to determine the value... failed. But, "the value of the assets" in question... isn't relevant to the "price of the stock" or the "value of the stock"... if all that exists to be valued is the management's inability to make value in the rocks matter in others valuation of the stock. Management trumps geology. My opinion is that Copper Fox management couldn't sell a silver dollar for a dime... because rather than succeeding in figuring out how to convert that dollar to more, they'd be focusing all their efforts on figuring out how to pocket $0.97 cents of it themselves. A silver dollar in their hands... is not worth a dollar... or a dime... because "management matters".
"Whether you like it or not, the assets held by the company hold some intrinsic value at all market prices whether that be $1, $1 million, $100 million or $1 Billion".
And, what that value is... doesn't matter... if it will never accrue to the benefit of a shareholder. Reality here is that management's track record... gives no reason to expect that if they found a dime on the sidewalk, or a billion dollars sitting in a desk drawer in the CEO's office... that it would ever matter to a shareholder.
"That value is affected by various factors whether they be commodity prices, project economics, broader market conditions, etc."
And none of that will matter, still... if management can't convert value that exists... to a benefit for shareholders.
"Seeing as we know your valuation (zero) and that you do not expect it to change, the fact that you are here is a complete of your time."
My time here is clearly time spent more profitably than your own...
"You also just wrote two pages lecturing the shareholders of this company that none of their opinions have any worth because they made an investment mistake in the past and haven't learned from it because they still hold shares. So to me that is an even bigger waste of your time as you are reading posts on people's opinions who do not matter."
It should not be surprising to anyone that you have to winnow a lot of chaff to find a few nuggets of value or potential value in the markets.
It shouldn't be surprising to anyone that the markets are populated with people who used car salesmen can disparage as disgustingly unethical... without being ironic.
It is an unfortunate reality... that most of the opinion you are forced to wade through on stock message boards is garbage written by idiots that know nothing... or garbage written by those purposefully seeking to flog obvious cluelessness in making an effort to manipulate others. There is maybe 5%, perhaps only 2%, that is written by honest people with a clue... who aren't seeking anything other than "being right". Of course, that 2% is the only part with any real potential value... other than what you can gain from proper analysis of the evidence of others efforts in manipulation, and the cluelessness of those being manipulated.
"Whether you like it or not the properties that CUU own do have some value attached to them".
Yes. However it is not at all clear that those values that do exist that are attached to the properties... are actually attached to the shares... and that is all that matters.
"Whether that is more or less than the current market capitalization of the company is up for debate".
I have seen no evidence presented yet... that suggests Copper Fox should be valued based on any claims they've made about "the value of the rocks". Copper Fox hasn't once been proven right about the value of the rocks, not yet... making it prudent to question the potential for "future success" that depends on a management being able to generate MORE value from their effort... rather than LESS. There clearly is going to be a survival limit imposed... on any company that spends $90 million dollars to "increase" the value of their holdings to $20 million dollars... and fails to learn anything from the errors made, but just keeps doing more of the same... hoping for luck ? Hoping for luck is not an investment strategy... and neither is it a proper method of management in mining exploration.
"The current market capitalization of CUU is ~$50 million. They own ~23-25% of Schaft Creek, VanDyke, Sombrero Butte and now have a 42% interest in Carmax. If the company were to be liquidated tomorrow to Teck or whoever else they most certainly wouldn't offer $0 for it."
What you have defined, there... is still not a definition of "success" that will ever work to make your shares worth more ? A management who spends millions... the result of which is the ability to claim that what they got for the money... is worth more than $0... is not particularly compelling as an inducement to higher valuations or additional investment.
"I value the company based on its assets, not based on where you tell me you think the stock price is going."
And, that's your mistake. Not that you should value anything based on my opinion rather than your own analysis (if you bothered with doing any analysis)... but that it is fatuous to value any company on the basis of "asset values" independent of PROOFS IN PERFORMANCE showing management preserving and growing value... while ensuring that value which does exist remains attached to the shares, and benefits shareholders, and not others, instead. Copper Fox... has done the opposite. That value (whatever it is) that SHOULD be attached to Copper Fox shares now... ISN'T... for some unknown reason. There is no ability to value Copper Fox... because of asset values... without handicapping the obviously large probability that any asset value which does exist... will be given away to someone else... since that has ALREADY HAPPENED HERE...
"The current share price does not always reflect the true value of a company, if it did I would own exactly the same number of shares as you do."
The current share price is ALWAYS close to being a correct reflection of the aggregate in all investors market valuations. If you are claiming the market is wrong, for some reason, and you are smarter than the market... you shouldn't believe it... if you can't explain to me why that is true. I don't see anything in yours that gets close to providing any REASON why you should believe the market is undervaluing Copper Fox...
"The fact that I once overvalued this company at some point in the past has no bearing on whether is it overvalued (or undervalued) now."
That's wildly incorrect. Being proven wrong... isn't a thing you can dismiss as a random event, like a coin flip... so that your next guess has an equal probability of being right or wrong as your prior failure... simply because time has passed since your prior failure.
"Whether the underlying value of the assets is greater or less than the market capitalization of the company determines whether it is overvalued or undervalued today."
That is incorrect. I can easily show you companies that have CASH in hand... that, after eliminating debt, still have CASH in hand, the value of which significantly exceeds the market cap. There is a reason that companies with CASH in hand will trade at a price far less than the value of their cash in hand... and the reason the market properly values a dollar in their hands at less than a dollar... is the probability that a dollar in their hands is worth less than a dollar to investors... because the management will not be able to use that dollar to make more money over time... but is in fact likely to convert that value in cash in hand into vastly less value over time. Copper Fox has proven they have just that skill, in the ability to convert $90 million into $20 million... in X time. A linear extrapolation of their performance... is rational. What is not rational, is to bet that prior performance doesn't mean anything...
"We know where you stand now so you do not have to repeat yourself."
No, I don't HAVE to repeat myself... or waste my time addressing people who choose to be and remain clueless... as events here continue to prove me right. Nor do you need to flog the readers of this board with persistent repetition of your obvious errors...
Why is it that people who are proven wrong... think that gives them MORE of a right to be heard ?
"The people on this board do not need yourself or anyone else for that matter lecturing us on the past transgressions. Mistakes get made, no one here is claiming they didn't make any on trading CUU. Because you have made better choices in the past doesn't make you more or less correct in this case."
Hogwash. Being proven wrong... is not a QUALIFICATION that means you'll probably be right next time...
"If you want to make the case for why the company's assets should be valued at less than $50 million then go right ahead..."
Don't pretend you have any right to PERMIT others to have opinions that conflict with your own...
"but the fact that the share price is trending toward 0.1, 0.05 or even 0.02 does not make the value of the properties worth less. They either have value or they don't."
That is wrong. FABULOUSLY wrong... to the point of being grossly detached from reality. Value does not exist independent of valuation. Nor does value MATTER... independently of its ATTACHMENTS...
"Go find value somewhere else as you seem bent on the fact that there is none here."
Piss off. |
