This doesn't seem to get people excited any more.
Not your imagination: ObamaCare premiums shot up by double digits for 2016
posted at 2:41 pm on November 5, 2015 by Ed Morrissey
This may seem redundant, given all of the attention to huge price spikes in the ObamaCare exchanges in states like Minnesota (between 34-50% for most plans) and Mississippi (over 60%). Even CBS News has begun to wake up to the rapidly escalating costs of insurance in the so-called Affordable Care Act exchanges. Yet ObamaCare advocates argue that these price explosions are localized and not indicative of the overall direction of premium prices in 2016.
A new study shows that the price hikes are not just localized or anecdotal. Megan McArdle picks up on an analysis by Avalere that shows an average 13% increase in the cheapest plans for subsidized mandatory coverage. McArdle writes that this may not be the “death spiral” that critics predicted, but it’s an indication that the assumptions made by ObamaCare’s architects turned out to be dead wrong (via Guy Benson):
This data, which showed premiums rising an average of 7.5 percent, is useful. But it is limited. We’d like to think that this tells us “how much premiums went up,” but it’s not that simple.
First of all, while the subsidies are pegged to the benchmark plan, not everyone buys that plan. Some people buy the cheapest Silver plan. Some people buy a more expensive one. Some people buy an even cheaper Bronze plan, and some people spring for Gold or Platinum coverage. Knowing how the price of the benchmark has changed tells us a great deal about how the subsidies will be calculated in 2016, but not nearly as much as we’d like to know about what people are experiencing in the marketplace. …
But a consulting company, Avalere Health, has provided at least slightly more data than we had before, supplementing the administration’s release of the information on benchmark plans by looking at the cost of the cheapest Bronze and Silver policies. It’s still far more limited than one would like, but looking at those rates does give us additional information.
The biggest thing they tell us is that, as I suspected when I wrote about the CMS release, the whole bottom of the market is undergoing a fairly massive repricing. In most states, the cost of the cheapest Silver plan, relative to the cheapest one last year, rose even more than the benchmark rate. And in most states, the cost of the cheapest Bronze plan went up by more than the cost of the cheapest Silver plan. (The average increase was 13 percent, but it looks as if it’s unweighted, while the government used a weighted average. As I noted last week, the weighted average is usually the most meaningful national metric, but the unweighted can be revealing as well.)
It’s also worth pointing out that these are the plans usually purchased by those of modest means or healthier individuals who don’t plan to utilize insurance as often as others. The major price escalation hits these consumers hardest, which makes the “affordable” tag on the ACA a little ironic.
McArdle believes that the premium price spikes alone don’t indicate the beginning of a death spiral in ObamaCare. The ongoing collapse of ObamaCare co-ops tell a different tale. Twelve of the 23 co-ops funded by HHS to replace the “public option” and supposedly provide low-cost choice for consumers have failed this year, and nine of those have stopped selling insurance in just the past six weeks. In my column for The Fiscal Times, I argue that this is a harbinger of a broader disaster:
Eventually, the Obama administration managed to get 23 co-ops in operation by the time of the October 2013 rollout of the Obamacare exchanges. Thanks to the risk corridor and reinsurance provisions within the ACA, those co-ops survived the first two full years of the program, albeit with the same premium pricing issues that other insurers experienced. However, the so-called “cromnibus” bill that resolved the FY2015 budget restricted HHS’ risk-corridor funding only to monies collected for that purpose, rather than through the agency’s budget or other revenue sources. And that is when the house of cards began to tumble.
Predictably, the financial model that critics warned would lead to a death spiral for insurers hit the co-ops first.
As it turns out, the non-profit co-op model for health insurance turns out to be unsustainable without government subsidies. More than half of the co-ops have been shut down this year, and nine of the 12 have shut down since October 1, either by HHS or by the states in which they operate. Over a billion dollars in loans and and backstop payments have been lost. The latest failure to be announced was in Michigan, where Consumers Mutual Insurance announced Tuesday that it would not sell insurance for 2016. The failure of these dozen co-ops has left nearly 750,000 consumers in the cold, looking for a plan from a traditional insurer at a higher price.
What happened? Predictably, the financial model that critics warned would lead to a death spiral for insurers hit the co-ops first. “They were low-cost alternatives,” Kaiser Health’s Mary Agnes Carey told PBS anchor Judy Woodruff. “If they were the lower price point, that tended to attract sicker beneficiaries. That would drive up their costs.” …
This disaster isn’t limited to the co-ops, though. The same model has forced premium prices on other plans to skyrocket three years in a row, and deductibles to rise to the level where many of these plans are nothing more than overpriced catastrophic coverage. Had the Democrats gotten their way, the public option would have covered up those issues and pushed the insurers out of business.
Make no mistake — this is a death spiral. It’s just that it took out the government operations before it took out the private insurers.
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So here are some facts for you:
1) Enrollment in ObamaCare plans are half of what the CBO projected when it passed
2) 10 state Co-ops have failed
3) 22 of 23 Co-ops are losing money, despite the injection of billions in taxpayer money
4) The individual insurance industry as a whole lost about $3 billion last year
5) The federal government is going to pay out a few billion in subsidies within the risk corridor program than the insurance companies are asking
6) The risk corridor funding runs out in 2017
So I don’t know if the sky is falling yet, but you can’t tell us all this is good, right?
Chuck Schick on November 5, 2015 at 4:43 PM
Hey remember when libtards said giving everyone health insurance would decrease ER visits.
Yeah, that didn’t happen either.
cmanet.org
HumpBot Salvation on November 5, 2015 at 4:46 PM
Stop it you two. We need Tlaloc convincing his fellow progressives that ObamaCare being a disaster is a right-wing myth and that Democrats should be running loud and proud on ObamaCare.
gwelf on November 5, 2015 at 4:49 PM
I’m all for them stepping up and stepping in Horseshit, it’s what I do.
verbaluce on November 5, 2015 at 3:39 PM
Edited for accuracy.
D-fusit on November 5, 2015 at 4:50 PM
We’re paying $1800 more next year than this year and that’s with a high deductible PPO.
This crappy law is going to hurt Hillary is a bad way.
AYNBLAND on November 5, 2015 at 4:51 PM
This is 200% normal lie based from tad lack etal.
They lie in crap like this evil Obama Care and then heap more lies in to defend the original lie based fraud.
The lies are falling from the sky hitting them on the head along with U S All. Standing in the best protection of free markets we can find watching them get hit in the head, watch out we say.
They say no it is only your right wing thinking these nots on our heads are rewards for voting commie.!!!!
APACHEWHOKNOWS on November 5, 2015 at 4:52 PM
Guess it was my HR’s imagination that the premiums from our long term insurer went up 25% for 2016. The good news is they found another provider and my costs are only going up 17% and I get to find new doctors. So I say this in all sincerity. Fukk You, obama and the low-info mofo’s/leeches you rode in on.
HumpBot Salvation on November 5, 2015 at 4:54 PM
So far all that’s happened is the right keeps screaming “the sky is falling” and yet it doesn’t.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 3:39 PM
So here are some facts for you:
2) 10 state Co-ops have failed
So I don’t know if the sky is falling yet, but you can’t tell us all this is good, right?
Chuck Schick on November 5, 2015 at 4:43 PM
4 of those 10 state co-ops are in Blue States, too-New York, Nevada, Colorado, and Oregon.
And what about the one in the Blue State O’bama claims to have been born in?
Just 8,200, or 21 percent of individuals enrolled on Hawaii’s Obamacare exchange have paid for their health premiums this year, according to a report released this week. This shockingly low number is the latest in a series of bad headlines for the exchange, which has announced it will transition to the federally run Healthcare.gov because of financial problems. In total 38,000 individuals are currently enrolled on Hawaii Health Connector, about half as many as is needed for the exchange to become financially viable.
When asked why so few enrollees have paid for their premiums as of March 31, the exchange gave the vague explanation that it takes time for people to receive and pay bills. When pressed further, Executive Director Jeff Kissell admitted that “A lot of them haven’t even been billed.”
The inability to complete this simple task is just another reason why Hawaii’s Obamacare exchange has failed.
Del Dolemonte on November 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM
Bill, “”””BILL””””” I don’t need no f’n bill I vote for Obama, I lie for Obama, I’m a player in the cult don’t ya dare send me a bill I’ll burn you house down and drive by your home,,,,,
APACHEWHOKNOWS on November 5, 2015 at 5:07 PM
Ever notice that the trolls, the president and any other pro obama person when they brag up obama care is that they are never on the system themselves???????????????. Ever notice that the trolls, obama and every other pro obama person never MENTIONs the extremely high deductibles???????… What good is the insurance if you can never use it. Everyone I know who has obama care pays 6000plus deductible or they have a plan that they get it 100 per cent free. All my leftists relatives, who love obama care are on some gov’t cadillac plan. I can’t believe how low informational they are.
garydt on November 5, 2015 at 5:09 PM
Not your imagination: ObamaCare premiums shot up by double digits for 2016
Naaah………really? Nobody saw this coming!
Another commie wet dream crashes and burns! Time for the RINOS to jump in and save it!
cottontail on November 5, 2015 at 5:11 PM
Golden oldie:
I said that the very insurance company that warned of “double digit increases” – Wellpoint – was now no longer claiming it. That all the insurance companies were stating that the numbers were all coming in as or better than expected, and that none of them were supporting your doomsday scenario of skyrocketing premiums.
I was right, and telling the truth – you were wrong, and dishonestly claimed i was lying.
Either apologize or drop it. Stop embarassing yourself.
everdiso on May 7, 2014 at 1:37 PM
Chuck Schick on November 5, 2015 at 5:15 PM
But premiums are still rising! Not only that, deductibles make many plans all but useless.
If Obamacare was so great the media would be crowing about it 24/7. You know that, I know that. They aren’t saying jack sh!t.
By the way, since you are the god of rain and fertility, don’t you have better things to do than babble on here?
darwin on November 5, 2015 at 4:22 PM
THIS. Mine’s currently at $2,600.
So, yeah, all kinds of people got ‘Health Insurance’ but unless you get run over by a bus, you can pretty much suck it.
BigWyo on November 5, 2015 at 6:26 PM
Jonathan Gruber came right out and flat said that Romney Care in Massachusetts was unsustainable from the get-go and ONLY survived because it was “secretly being propped up by Ted Kennedy” with federal money. He also said there was no way to take that model national because “How do you secretly prop yourself up?” That’s why you MUST run this through “State Exchanges” so THEY can be secretly propped up by the federal government at least long enough for it “to become un-repealable.” SO “the States have to be FORCED to create State Exchanges” because they were THE essential
key to obscuring the un-sustainability.
He explained this all very clearly, in plain English.
Pole-Cat on November 5, 2015 at 6:40 PM
Tialic…you’re pathetic. Obama said premiums would go down ..es..cvnt.
CWforFreedom on November 5, 2015 at 6:44 PM
5) The federal government is going to pay out a few billion in subsidies within the risk corridor program than the insurance companies are asking
6) The risk corridor funding runs out in 2017
HumpBot Salvation on November 5, 2015 at 4:46 PM
Isn’t the risk corridor payments being shorted this year?
wifarmboy on November 5, 2015 at 7:16 PM
The crime here is the money sucking coop loans, like billions of dollars to set up a non profit blah blah blah…
Do you remember the lie that Obama was just doing what Mitt did in MA? the current governor of MA turned around a non profit insurer, they sure did not look at how it was done in MA or they would build about 6 big medical schools, and have enough doctors to treat anyone in the world that wants to come. And they would have asked how to run a non profit health care company. But they didn’t, cuz Charlie Baker was there.
All the ACA set up money went to friends and slipped thru fingers like water. I think the House needs to investigate where the cash went.
Fleuries on November 5, 2015 at 7:19 PM
Chuck Schick on November 5, 2015 at 5:15 PM
That’s comedy gold, Jerry!
Judge_Dredd on November 5, 2015 at 7:53 PM
Had my run in with Obamacare today while at the doctors office for a checkup. I’ve felt fine for many years and hadn’t seen any need to go to the doctor since 2008. Just turned 40 and past few weeks been in a state of malaise and thought I’d should get a physical. Last time I went to the same doc my copay was 20 dollars. This time, was told that since I hadn’t met my 3000 deductible (it used to be 1500) that I had to pay the full exam visit costs out of pocket of 90 dollars. And I’m already scheduled for a follow-up exam in a month so that’s another 90 dollars. Thanks Obama….
Heftyjo on November 5, 2015 at 7:58 PM
Last year my premium went up $1320 per year over the first year. This year it appear to be going up another $1200 per year. And these are for “benefits” that don’t pay until a $6600 deductible is met.
So yeah. This insurance basically will not kick in unless I keel over and get hospitalized for something major. If that happens I will end up broke anyway from lost wages from missing work. At that point the medical care providers will have to eat the deductible because of the lost wages. If I am lucky enough to leave the hospital alive I would have to live under a bridge. It is no surprise to me no one wants this boondoggle insurance.
karenhasfreedom on November 5, 2015 at 8:06 PM
So here are some facts for you:
1) Enrollment in ObamaCare plans are half of what the CBO projected when it passed
2) 10 state Co-ops have failed
3) 22 of 23 Co-ops are losing money, despite the injection of billions in taxpayer money
4) The individual insurance industry as a whole lost about $3 billion last year
5) The federal government is going to pay out a few billion in subsidies within the risk corridor program than the insurance companies are asking
6) The risk corridor funding runs out in 2017
So I don’t know if the sky is falling yet, but you can’t tell us all this is good, right?
Chuck Schick on November 5, 2015 at 4:43 PM
1) who cares so long as it is moving the uninsured rate in the right direction, which it has been strongly?
2) yeah when you try something new sometimes their are snags, it happens, more to the point it is a regular feature of capitalism that some businesses fail. In fact the failure of some businesses and the thriving of others is supposed to be one of capitalism’s great benefits. You don’t seem to mind that given you want to move to a more capitalist system so I find your complaint here more than a little disingenuous
3) I don’t have a problem with them losing money, the idea of health insurance as for profit is fundamentally immoral, frankly
4) Good, see above
5) And?
6) It’ll be renewed.
Is this the best you got? SO far Obamacare has slowed the rise in healthcare costs and lowered the uninsured rate, it’s main objectives. All you can point to for failures are illusory price hikes that never materialize and the failure of a few co-ops which will be replaced. Meanwhile the right isn’t even talking about repeal anymore judging by the debates…
*shrug*
Seems pretty good for the left really.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:12 PM
We’re paying $1800 more next year than this year and that’s with a high deductible PPO.
This crappy law is going to hurt Hillary is a bad way.
AYNBLAND on November 5, 2015 at 4:51 PM
It really hurt Obama, huh? I mean he only got 332 EV and +4% popular vote margin.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:14 PM
Guess it was my HR’s imagination that the premiums from our long term insurer went up 25% for 2016. The good news is they found another provider and my costs are only going up 17% and I get to find new doctors. So I say this in all sincerity. Fukk You, obama and the low-info mofo’s/leeches you rode in on.
HumpBot Salvation on November 5, 2015 at 4:54 PM
So your HR is incompetent and you blame Obama, naturally.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:15 PM
Tialic…you’re pathetic. Obama said premiums would go down ..es..cvnt.
CWforFreedom on November 5, 2015 at 6:44 PM
Not that you completely lack credibility, or anything, but why don’t you go ahead and post a link to Obama saying that?
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:19 PM
Had my run in with Obamacare today while at the doctors office for a checkup. I’ve felt fine for many years and hadn’t seen any need to go to the doctor since 2008. Just turned 40 and past few weeks been in a state of malaise and thought I’d should get a physical. Last time I went to the same doc my copay was 20 dollars. This time, was told that since I hadn’t met my 3000 deductible (it used to be 1500) that I had to pay the full exam visit costs out of pocket of 90 dollars. And I’m already scheduled for a follow-up exam in a month so that’s another 90 dollars. Thanks Obama….
Heftyjo on November 5, 2015 at 7:58 PM
Strangely you guys are the same ones decrying parasites and saying that people need more skin in the game, but when it’s your skin you hate it.
Funny that.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:21 PM
Tlaloc, Mutual insurers are owned by their policy holders. There are no profits for greedy shareholders. You really don’t know this industry. You have to be a paid hack to spread misinformation in websites.
karenhasfreedom on November 5, 2015 at 8:25 PM
Tlaloc, Mutual insurers are owned by their policy holders. There are no profits for greedy shareholders. You really don’t know this industry. You have to be a paid hack to spread misinformation in websites.
karenhasfreedom on November 5, 2015 at 8:25 PM
Brainloc is seriously mentally ill, if you hadn’t figured it out yet. lol :D
Anti-ControI on November 5, 2015 at 8:29 PM
See the politifact link for one.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 4:06 PM
That link didn’t contain numbers prior to the passage of the ACA. It features Jonathan Gruber saying it wasn’t even possible for them to gather that kind of data prior to the passage of the ACA. We covered this already.
DO YOU… have DATA… that supports your CLAIM?
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 8:32 PM
Tlaloc, Mutual insurers are owned by their policy holders. There are no profits for greedy shareholders. You really don’t know this industry. You have to be a paid hack to spread misinformation in websites.
karenhasfreedom on November 5, 2015 at 8:25 PM
Are you claiming that there are no health insurance stocks?
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:32 PM
Where did Tialoc go? I wanted to know what he thought of those high deductibles.
garydt on November 5, 2015 at 8:34 PM
That link didn’t contain numbers prior to the passage of the ACA. It features Jonathan Gruber saying it wasn’t even possible for them to gather that kind of data prior to the passage of the ACA. We covered this already.
DO YOU… have DATA… that supports your CLAIM?
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 8:32 PM
I find I’m uninmpressed by your claims of having dealt with it, Schaef.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:35 PM
Where did Tialoc go? I wanted to know what he thought of those high deductibles.
garydt on November 5, 2015 at 8:34 PM
I’m right here. Your inability to shop around also doesn’t impress me.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:36 PM
So your HR is incompetent and you blame Obama, naturally.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:15 PM
And you, staying true to form, blame everyone but the cause.
I was literally in the CFO’s office this afternoon while she and the ED of our organization were discussing the Sophie’s choice they had regarding our insurance for the coming calendar year.
And as a non-profit we’re not even subject to all of the same plan restrictions as, for example, the exchanges.
But yeah, they’re probably just stupid, too. All these people buying insurance are stupid and not going out and buying some magically affordable coverage.
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 8:40 PM
I find I’m uninmpressed by your claims of having dealt with it, Schaef.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:35 PM
I didn’t “deal with” anything. And the truth doesn’t care how “impressed” you are by its mere existence.
You did not provide data that supported your claim. The data you did provide, directly contradicts your claim.
DO YOU… have DATA… that supports your CLAIM?
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 8:42 PM
And you, staying true to form, blame everyone but the cause.
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 8:40 PM
Do you think arguing with the known idiot is going to change him, or accomplish anything positive?
Anti-ControI on November 5, 2015 at 8:42 PM
But yeah, they’re probably just stupid, too. All these people buying insurance are stupid and not going out and buying some magically affordable coverage.
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 8:40 PM
Evidently, as they can’t seem to avoid a huge spike that everyone else has by simply, you know, looking at the options.
You naturally demand I ignore the evidence to accept your anecdote.
Sorry, no.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:42 PM
The data you did provide, directly contradicts your claim.
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 8:42 PM
No, it doesn’t. You insist it does either because you don’t understand it or because you refuse to deal with the facts. I’m not sure which and honestly I don’t care.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:44 PM
Where did Tialoc go? I wanted to know what he thought of those high deductibles.
garydt on November 5, 2015 at 8:34 PM
Tialoc, Tiaioc, I mean, what the f*ck is this stupid sh!t? You guys sure this ain’t narutoputz reincarnated somehow?
Judge_Dredd on November 5, 2015 at 8:44 PM
Do you think arguing with the known idiot is going to change him, or accomplish anything positive?
Anti-ControI on November 5, 2015 at 8:42 PM
At some point Schaef may join me in objective reality which yes would be a positive.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:45 PM
You insist it does either because you don’t understand it or because you refuse to deal with the facts.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:44 PM
You haven’t presented any.
You presented an article that specifically said the data you’re talking about cannot exist.
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 8:51 PM
At some point Schaef may join me in objective reality which yes would be a positive.
Brainloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:45 PM
You openly dismiss and mock people here, yet some still argue with you and take you seriously anyway, letting you put the “I’m with Stupid” sign on them…you foolish codependents deserve each other, I guess! lol :D
Anti-ControI on November 5, 2015 at 8:56 PM
join me in objective reality, where as we all know, Israel sank the USS Liberty in 1967 and the Allies deposed Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito after World War 2.
Kenny Bania on November 5, 2015 at 8:45 PM
F-IXED!
Del Dolemonte on November 5, 2015 at 9:01 PM
More comedy gold, Jerry!
Judge_Dredd on November 5, 2015 at 9:03 PM
Just so we’re clear, this is Tlaloc’s example of “evidence” that rates are rising at their slowest pace “in modern history”:
Beginning in 2011, they had to report rate increases of more than 10% because of the ACA, and beginning with 2015 rates, they must report all increases.
“The individual insurance market has always been volatile, and people with individual coverage often experienced large premium increases,” Gruber said. “Until now, we haven’t had data to tell us what those increases looked like.”
So “modern history” didn’t begin with the Industrial Age, or with the Electronic Age, or the Digital Age. It only started a year after the passage of the ACA, a law for which, miraculously, nobody altered their behavior in any way before the exchanges went online.
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 9:07 PM
You openly dismiss and mock people here, yet some still argue with you and take you seriously anyway, letting you put the “I’m with Stupid” sign on them…you foolish codependents deserve each other, I guess! lol :D
Anti-ControI on November 5, 2015 at 8:56 PM
Whether he decides to converse reasonably or not is up to him, but it takes away from him any argument that people are not talking about the actual issue, or that they just call him a bunch of nasty names or say things about his mother.
I mean, he still does it, but it reveals the lie that he would be reasonable if people would just speak reasonably to him.
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 9:09 PM
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:15 PM
Fuvk You, gimp. You don’t know shit about my HR. Ignorant scroat.
No, it doesn’t. You insist it does either because you don’t understand it or because you refuse to deal with the facts. I’m not sure which and honestly I don’t care.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:44 PM
LOL, you stupid motherfvker, you didn’t even read the link you posted
You truly are one stupid son of b!tch.
HumpBot Salvation on November 5, 2015 at 9:13 PM
Whether he decides to converse reasonably or not is up to him, but it takes away from him any argument that people are not talking about the actual issue, or that they just call him a bunch of nasty names or say things about his mother.
I mean, he still does it, but it reveals the lie that he would be reasonable if people would just speak reasonably to him.
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 9:09 PM
The idiot openly admits he doesn’t care about you or what you say – why waste further words engaging with him like they matter? lol :)
I guess you like talking to brick walls? :D
Anti-ControI on November 5, 2015 at 9:16 PM
Evidently, as they can’t seem to avoid a huge spike that everyone else has by simply, you know, looking at the options.
You naturally demand I ignore the evidence to accept your anecdote.
Sorry, no.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:42 PM
LOL yeah people are looking for the cheapest plan. You’re an idiot.
HumpBot Salvation on November 5, 2015 at 9:18 PM
In NC, Blue Cross will be allowed to raise it’s policies to individuals, whether sold on the exchange or elsewhere, by an average of 32.5%. United Healthcare was approved for an average 20.5% rate hike and Aetna was approved for an average 23.5% increase.
Thanks, Obama!
lynncgb on November 5, 2015 at 9:19 PM
Tialic…you’re pathetic. Obama said premiums would go down ..es..cvnt.
CWforFreedom on November 5, 2015 at 6:44 PM
Not that you completely lack credibility, or anything, but why don’t you go ahead and post a link to Obama saying that?
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:19 PM
buzzfeed.com
Poor tlaloc can’t even get the basic stuff correct. Sad but typical.
HumpBot Salvation on November 5, 2015 at 9:22 PM
The idiot openly admits he doesn’t care about you or what you say
Anti-ControI on November 5, 2015 at 9:16 PM
Admitting that only demonstrates that he can’t converse reasonably about his position, which in turn undermines his claims. He only hurts himself by doing that, if people decide they don’t care to play chess with a pigeon.
He’s been shown he will get a fair shake if he acts reasonably. If not, it won’t be because there wasn’t an offer.
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 9:27 PM
You truly are one stupid son of b!tch.
HumpBot Salvation on November 5, 2015 at 9:13 PM
He is here to distract, lie, obfuscate, derail and get you to lose it.
Have you ever wondered, when it shows up, the thread becomes unreadable? Responding to it is what it wants. Whether cherry-picking leftist sites to bolster its ACA claims or proclaiming Hillary innocent for lack of prosecution, it is here to piss you off. Nothing more. Sadly they don’t ban anyone for derailing threads on a regular basis any more.
The angrier you become the more it sits in that chair wherever it is and giggles. That’s all it does.
Judge_Dredd on November 5, 2015 at 9:35 PM
See Humpbot’s link. The troll knows it was said, was there WHEN it was said and now does its Nathan Thurm imitation and you people continue to feed it.
Judge_Dredd on November 5, 2015 at 9:37 PM
The angrier you become the more it sits in that chair wherever it is and giggles. That’s all it does.
Judge_Dredd on November 5, 2015 at 9:35 PM
Not mad, bro. I know exactly what he is. I almost feel sorry for the little fella. He’s got a long internet slime trail of being a pathetic troll. Speaks to some type of psychosis.
HumpBot Salvation on November 5, 2015 at 9:43 PM
Admitting that only demonstrates that he can’t converse reasonably about his position, which in turn undermines his claims. He only hurts himself by doing that, if people decide they don’t care to play chess with a pigeon.
He’s been shown he will get a fair shake if he acts reasonably. If not, it won’t be because there wasn’t an offer.
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 9:27 PM
You keep talking to/about him like this hasn’t already been well-established, that it’s not perfectly clear he’s a hopelessly mentally-ill fraud…if you believe arguing with him directly is still necessary anyway, you won’t mind if I shake my head and laugh while thinking you’re misusing your time, will you? :D
Anti-ControI on November 5, 2015 at 9:52 PM
you won’t mind if I shake my head and laugh while thinking you’re misusing your time, will you? :D
Anti-ControI on November 5, 2015 at 9:52 PM
I don’t know why the use of my time is of such great concern to you, if that’s what you’re asking. You’ve already spent more time asking how I use it than I’ve spent caring about it. It doesn’t bother me, it doesn’t hurt you, and ostensibly, he doesn’t care. So who loses?
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 10:05 PM
I don’t know why the use of my time is of such great concern to you, if that’s what you’re asking. You’ve already spent more time asking how I use it than I’ve spent caring about it. It doesn’t bother me, it doesn’t hurt you, and ostensibly, he doesn’t care. So who loses?
The Schaef on November 5, 2015 at 10:05 PM
Since I’m not codependent nor defensive, and because I’m very amused, certainly not me! :D
Anti-ControI on November 5, 2015 at 10:25 PM
Health care premium by year for an individual in MN non-smoker.
2014: $320 premium, $450 deductible, 20% to $2100 max out of pocket
2015: $510 premium, $1800 deductible, 0% above $1800
2016: $835 premium, $2000 deductible, 0% above $2000
or
2016 B: $570 premium, $4700 deductible, 20% to $6550 max out of pocket.
2014 was a group plan for spouse of retiree,
2015 is off exchange plan
2016 is off exchange plan basically same as 2015 except for the extra $3900 in premiums and $200 in deductible.
2016 B is a lower cost option but with much higher deductible.
Thanks to ObamaCare former employer dropped healthcare for retirees. A DOW 30 company.
Dasher on November 5, 2015 at 10:53 PM
1) who cares so long as it is moving the uninsured rate in the right direction, which it has been strongly?
“Strongly”? Its 2-3 points below where it was under Bush in the middle of the worst recession since the Great Depression. And that margin is all due to MEDICAID, which cannot be equated with insurance, and it’s all a temporary boost anyway.
2) yeah when you try something new sometimes their are snags, it happens, more to the point it is a regular feature of capitalism that some businesses fail. In fact the failure of some businesses and the thriving of others is supposed to be one of capitalism’s great benefits. You don’t seem to mind that given you want to move to a more capitalist system so I find your complaint here more than a little disingenuous
So we agree- the model is not viable, at least across the board. Lots of people lost their insurance- twice in some cases.
3) I don’t have a problem with them losing money, the idea of health insurance as for profit is fundamentally immoral, frankly
Then maybe you geniuses shoudn’t have made the FOR PROFIT insurance companies the executors of ObamaCare.
4) Good, see above
ObamaCare needs private insurers or it collapses. You clearly do not understand how it was built.
5) And?
So premiums will continue to climb to compensate, of course.
6) It’ll be renewed.
Based on what?
Is this the best you got? SO far Obamacare has slowed the rise in healthcare costs and lowered the uninsured rate, it’s main objectives. All you can point to for failures are illusory price hikes that never materialize and the failure of a few co-ops which will be replaced. Meanwhile the right isn’t even talking about repeal anymore judging by the debates…
*shrug*
Seems pretty good for the left really.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:12 PM
Uh, nope.
After years of historically slow growth, health care spending is once again on the rise — and it’s expected to continue to accelerate over the next decade.
Thanks in large part to the expansion of coverage under Obamacare, health care spending in the U.S. is projected to have hit $3.1 trillion, or $9,695 per person, last year. That’s an increase of 5.5%, according to federal estimates released Tuesday. It’s the first time the rate would exceed 5% since 2007.
CNN
This is the point you leave the thread, Tlaloc. I always debunk you. You’re an exceptionally bad liar.
Chuck Schick on November 5, 2015 at 11:06 PM
It really hurt Obama, huh? I mean he only got 332 EV and +4% popular vote margin.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:14 PM
But is leaving the Democrat party in Congress in the worst shape since the Depression. Imagine all the free stuff you could have scored in his last 6 years had that not happened.
Instead his biggest accomplishment was making 85% of the Bush tax cuts permanent, which included many in the 1%.
Chuck Schick on November 5, 2015 at 11:12 PM
Here we gooo . . . . . . . . .
.
1) – who cares so long as it is moving the uninsured rate in the right direction, which it has been strongly?
.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:12 PM
.
The people who PAY for it, care quite a bit.
Obviously, those getting subsidies are ECSTATIC!
Btw, the people who have to pay FULL PRICE for it (under penalty of the law for non-compliance), greatly outnumber those who get subsidies.
.
2) – yeah when you try something new sometimes their are snags, it happens, more to the point it is a regular feature of capitalism that some businesses fail. In fact the failure of some businesses and the thriving of others is supposed to be one of capitalism’s great benefits. You don’t seem to mind that given you want to move to a more capitalist system so I find your complaint here more than a little disingenuous
.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:12 PM
.
A failure on the part of government, as regards a bad decision resulting in a MASSIVE cost to involuntary investors (taxpayers) has zero (0) equivalence to a private business venture that fails, causing losses to voluntary investors.
.
3) – I don’t have a problem with them losing money, the idea of health insurance as for profit is fundamentally immoral, frankly.
.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:12 PM
.
It worked fine, until the 1970s, when U.S. citizens really began in wholesale numbers to play “litigation lottery”, with dumbassed Judges and jurors awarding huge winnings to the lottery players, and their lawyers.
.
Is this the best you got? SO far Obamacare has slowed the rise in healthcare costs and lowered the uninsured rate, it’s main objectives.
.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:12 PM
.
? . . . . . It won’t do to simply say that it has NOT “slowed the rise in healthcare costs” … it has GREATLY accelerated the rise of costs, which happens to be the main point of this thread.
.
All you can point to for failures are illusory price hikes that never materialize and the failure of a few co-ops which will be replaced.
.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:12 PM
.
There’s nothing “illusory” about this or this, even if they are just the “worst case” examples.
.
Meanwhile the right isn’t even talking about repeal anymore judging by the debates…
*shrug*
Seems pretty good for the left really.
.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:12 PM
.
You’re right, they haven’t been … dammit…
.
FWIW … Ben Carson told Beck last week that the right way to do it is to 1) Replace, then 2) Repeal … but unfortunately ran out of time to explain.
listens2glenn on November 6, 2015 at 12:13 AM
3) – I don’t have a problem with them losing money, the idea of health insurance as for profit is fundamentally immoral, frankly.
The fact that I can’t tell you how my Unicorn non-profit health insurance will be able to pay for all of those sick people isn’t relevant; after all you stupid Republicans rejected Mommy’s HillaryCare program 20 years ago.
Kenny Bania on November 5, 2015 at 8:12 PM
F-IXED.
In the late 1990’s, after Hillary!Care was rejected, according to the co-pResidents we had a roaring economy.
Homework assignment, Kenny. Find some Kos or Zsa Zsa cites showing how the Clinton late 1990s bubble was built like an Arkansas Outhouse. I’ll be here!
F-
Del Dolemonte on November 6, 2015 at 2:10 AM
It really hurt Obama, huh? I mean he only got 332 EV and +4% popular vote margin.
Kenny Bania on November 5, 2015 at 8:14 PM
He did so by losing the college graduate vote to the Republicans, and increasing his share of the high school dropout vote from his already-record-high 70% in 2008 to 80%+ in 2012. In the Blue State of Pennsylvania, he got 81% plus.
And those stats come straight from exit polls done by both CNN and MSNBC, hardly Republican Mouthpieces. In fact, MSLSD was so ashamed of their 2008 results that they vanished them from their website a couple of years later.
And yet your Democrat Media, which Dr. Goebbels would be proud of, never mentioned that your Cult Leader lost the vote of college graduates in 2012. Instead, they breathlessly orgasmed over how he won the vote of voters with “advanced degrees”, who most likely number 1/2 of 1% of voters.
At the same time, your Democrat Media has been fawning over O’bama’s “intelligence” since 2007. Yet unlike his predecessor Chimpy Bush, he refuses to release he college transcripts. W released his in 2004, and they actually showed that he got higher grades at the same college than his Democrat “opponent” did; Lurch then whined late in the race about how he was losing to “this idiot”.
This is the same Lurch who said his favorite Boston Red Sox player was “Manny Ortez”, proving his innate Inherited Heinz Ketchup Racism once and for all.
How come your Party has abandoned the intelligent people, Kenny? The answer is simple. You know that they are no longer buying your manure. And since multiple people here on Hot Gas have repeatedly buried you and you manure know, you’re not at all interested in facts, only in what you perceive as facts.
Get a new manure spreader, OK? Maybe one that’s less that 69 years old?
F-
Del Dolemonte on November 6, 2015 at 2:35 AM
2) yeah when you try something new sometimes their are snags, it happens, more to the point it is a regular feature of capitalism that some businesses fail. In fact the failure of some businesses and the thriving of others is supposed to be one of capitalism’s great benefits. You don’t seem to mind that given you want to move to a more capitalist system so I find your complaint here more than a little disingenuous So we agree- the model is not viable, at least across the board. Lots of people lost their insurance- twice in some cases.
Chuck Schick on November 5, 2015 at 11:06 PM
He also whiffs on this response in that he is talking about state co-ops. The only reason those insurers even existed was because the law created a block of money and said, if you want to create a plan for the exchange, we’ll give you the money to do it. I don’t in the least see anything capitalistic about this, other than the fact that the government-funded businesses were unsustainable. It’s a “win” for capitalism but it doesn’t change the fact that it illustrates how the whole model is a giant house of cards under a trillion dollars of government money.
The Schaef on November 6, 2015 at 9:53 AM
3) I don’t have a problem with them losing money, the idea of health insurance as for profit is fundamentally immoral, frankly Then maybe you geniuses shoudn’t have made the FOR PROFIT insurance companies the executors of ObamaCare.
Chuck Schick on November 5, 2015 at 11:06 PM
I wonder if there is any intention for Tlaloc that these businesses should grow or thrive in any way. I mean, is it bad to serve your product to more customers? What happens when your demand outstrips your ability to handle the business?
A normal business would expand, add more facilities, more resources, more staff. But an insurer is now required to go 80/20 on its claims payments, and it has to pay sales and administrative costs before doing other stuff with its cash on hand. So how do you grow a business under that prohibitive regulation?
Not an issue for the insurance giants; they have a lot more “20%” than newer and/or smaller businesses. So once again we see the government trying to legislate social engineering through the business sector, and then the businesses turn around and “help” to craft the legislation in such a way that the big companies rule the roost and small competitors are choked out of existence. See also: Big Three Auto, Sarbannes-Oxley, etc.
The Schaef on November 6, 2015 at 10:04 AM
He also whiffs on this response in that he is talking about state co-ops. The only reason those insurers even existed was because the law created a block of money and said, if you want to create a plan for the exchange, we’ll give you the money to do it. I don’t in the least see anything capitalistic about this, other than the fact that the government-funded businesses were unsustainable. It’s a “win” for capitalism but it doesn’t change the fact that it illustrates how the whole model is a giant house of cards under a trillion dollars of government money.
The Schaef on November 6, 2015 at 9:53 AM
Great points.
Tlaloc is all over the place. He clearly does not understand the law.
On one hand, he blindly supports ObamaCare and most of his arguments are “so what?” and “I don’t care”. This is the problem with the parasitic mentality like Tlaloc’s that redistribution programs like ObamaCare promote: “I want mine, screw everyone else, leave the debt to future generations and gimme my free stuff”.
But on the other hand, he says that insurance companies are immoral, not undertstanding that ObamaCare raided HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS from Medicare, the one true across-the board single payer program in the United States, and handed the money over to the very capitalistic insurance companies he claims to hate.
This is why he continues to spin his wheels, throws a hissy fit and then storms out of the thread. He has to defend a program that is supposedly antithetical to his core beliefs. It’s called cognitive dissonance.
Chuck Schick on November 6, 2015 at 10:04 AM
Tialic…you’re pathetic. Obama said premiums would go down ..es..cvnt.
CWforFreedom on November 5, 2015 at 6:44 PM
Not that you completely lack credibility, or anything, but why don’t you go ahead and post a link to Obama saying that?
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:19 PM
buzzfeed.com
Poor tlaloc can’t even get the basic stuff correct. Sad but typical.
HumpBot Salvation on November 5, 2015 at 9:22 PM
This is a Tlaloc quote for the ages.
Ha ha ha.
gwelf on November 6, 2015 at 10:31 AM
In fairness, I don’t think I’ve ever seen him sustain a thread past the day it posts. It’s part of his charm.
If you post after a certain time of day, you’re talking to the air. No discussion is ever sustained long enough to move anybody forward. If you point out that you never got an answer, it’s your own fault that he didn’t see your response. If you make it a point to track him down elsewhere and restate the question, then there’s something wrong with you mentally. You can even ask him exactly what rules he wants you to follow in order to do everything his way and get no answer.
It literally is pigeon chess: knock over the pieces, dump on the board, then strut around declaring yourself the winner. Once you’ve checked off those three boxes, there’s really no reason to look in a thread on a second day, and God forbid something get carried over from a previous discussion.
The silver lining is, his trollish proclamations provide a platform to dispense good information.
The Schaef on November 6, 2015 at 10:32 AM
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:44 PM
Pathetic. You’ll still be whispering praises to your god-king Obama when the death panel gives you your last morphine drip.
cornbred on November 6, 2015 at 10:53 AM
AFFORDABLE!!!
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 11:33 AM
From last year:
factcheck.org
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 3:27 PM
Nothing like debating a current article with a year old “Fact Check” from A Project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center.
“Non-Partisan and Independent.”
Hilarious!
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 11:45 AM
Odds it is, in fact, your imagination: 95%
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 3:22 PM
Is that a sentence?
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 11:50 AM
You guys aren’t bothering to make up new lies, so why should I put effort into rebutting you yet again?
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 3:27 PM
But it’s worthless socialists such as yourself that routinely lie.
But worse than that, you drones actually believe your own lies.
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 11:52 AM
A side note. The Scandinavian Nations are belly aching
about all the Immigrants arriving to their shores…ToddPA on November 5, 2015 at 3:24 PM
Scandinavia is a region, not a nation.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 3:37 PM
Pay particular not to the “s” that ToddPA placed at the end of the word “Nation.” This indicates plurality, which in turn indicates a region (a collection of nations) rather than a single nation.
Also you left out a comparison of GDP.
Scandinavia is not nearly as Utopian as you would like to imagine.
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 11:58 AM
So far all that’s happened is the right keeps screaming “the sky is falling” and yet it doesn’t.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 3:39 PM
You’d think that with their own experience with routinely failing smelly co-ops, that drones might have the wisdom to predict the failure of Affordable ObamaCare co-ops.
Not so. Apparently for them, this is all still categorized under “unexpectedly” or something.
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:04 PM
http://www.gallup.com/poll/184064/uninsured-rate-second-quarter.aspx
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 3:41 PM
So in other words, lazy socialists are getting free healthcare off the labor of productive capitalists.
What promise was that exactly?
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:08 PM
See the politifact link for one.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 4:06 PM
He said data, not propaganda.
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:09 PM
…you’ll have to forgive my amusement at saying other people can’t think for themselves.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 4:08 PM
Collective, collaborative, cooperative. Rinse, repeat.
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:10 PM
Yes I deny that because the uninsured rate is clear- people have gained insurance. Have a tiny number of specific individuals lost coverage? Probably some, yeah, but they’re massively outnumbered by the people gaining coverage.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 4:14 PM
Can you elaborate on your comment here in the context of the these articles?
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:17 PM
No, they aren’t. They’re actually rising slower than they have in modern history.
You guys are so baldy mis-educated by the right and yet you keep listening to them no matter how disastrously wrong they prove over and over.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 4:16 PM
Those who cite “non-partisan and and independent” Annenberg propaganda are not in a position to comment on the education of others.
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:21 PM
3) I don’t have a problem with them losing money, the idea of health insurance as for profit is fundamentally immoral, frankly
This of course is entirely incorrect.
The idea of health insurance for profit is anti-Marxist, therefore making it moral in the extreme.
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:24 PM
It really hurt Obama, huh? I mean he only got 332 EV and +4% popular vote margin.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:14 PM
Still bragging about 52%?
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:25 PM
So your HR is incompetent and you blame Obama, naturally.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:15 PM
What role did his HR play in imposing ObamaCare on the nation?
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:25 PM
Not that you completely lack credibility, or anything, but why don’t you go ahead and post a link to Obama saying that?
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:19 PM
This is where you accuse normal people of living in an echo chamber.
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:28 PM
Strangely you guys are the same ones decrying parasites and saying that people need more skin in the game, but when it’s your skin you hate it.
Funny that.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:21 PM
What comment exactly are you referring to? Specific quotes please.
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:28 PM
Holy $#!+, Starbird.
And to think I apologize to the group if I end up making a third post in sequence because of something I forgot to mention.
The Schaef on November 6, 2015 at 12:30 PM
You naturally demand I ignore the evidence to accept your anecdote.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:42 PM
Why do you feel that leftist propaganda is evidence?
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:30 PM
No, it doesn’t. You insist it does either because you don’t understand it or because you refuse to deal with the facts. I’m not sure which and honestly I don’t care.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:44 PM
Hence the reason for your prolific posts here.
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:31 PM
At some point Schaef may join me in objective reality which yes would be a positive.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:45 PM
Those who embrace an ideology that sprang from the adolescent minds of LSD imbibing hippies from the flatulent 1960s, are wholly unqualified to comment on the nature of reality.
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:33 PM
Holy $#!+, Starbird.
And to think I apologize to the group if I end up making a third post in sequence because of something I forgot to mention.
The Schaef on November 6, 2015 at 12:30 PM
Is it really that big of an issue?
Star Bird on November 6, 2015 at 12:53 PM
Star Bird, excellent take down of Tiaioc.
blink on November 6, 2015 at 3:25 PM
Strangely you guys are the same ones decrying parasites and saying that people need more skin in the game, but when it’s your skin you hate it.
Funny that.
Tlaloc on November 5, 2015 at 8:21 PM
Yeah, that’s just crazy that people don’t like prices going up! A chance to get more skin in the game!!
Axeman on November 6, 2015 at 5:53 PM
This is to the seeming suggestion that there are “private plans” and Obamacare plans. There are not. The ACA outlawed all plans that didn’t meet the HHS specification under the ACA. So all healthcare plans had to change so that they could meet the requirements. All plans in the US, available to anybody have to conform to the HHS requirements–which is why Hobby Lobby and the Little Sisters of Mercy were required to purchase private plans that funded abortifacients for their employees.
All plans were affected by the ACA. Your employer just decides on how much they’ll pay of your premiums for these approved plans. That’s it.
Axeman on November 6, 2015 at 5:59 PM
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