Morpher are you saying the following replys have nothing to do with order flow?
No, they don't.
I suggest you spend more time reading and less time insulting but of course I am also sure you will not take my advice.
That's funny how some people can dish it out but can't take it. Isn't this your reply when I simply asked for clarification: "so this is my point are you dense or what"?
Anyways I went ahead and copied the replys for the benefit of others.
Several posts out of over 7000 from Datek's thread mean nothing. If you actually followed that thread before opening your mouth, you'd realize that most posts by Datek's reps have many replies, most of them are about different subjects than these addressed in the original post.
Since you have so much trouble understanding simple concepts, I'll go over each post:
Subject: Datek Brokerage $9.95 a
trade
To: Jon Normile
From: Jack Zahran
Dec 8 1997 1:29PM EST
Reply #6205 of 7253
Dear Mr. Normile:
Thank you for your excellent and informative post. I have
learned a lot about trading in the past few months and I owe a
lot of that knowledge to the experiences I have had with your
company. If you look at my post, following the one you quote
Message 2896500 you
will see that with regards to market representation, I concluded
that you must be representing trades on Island while still
working them outside of Island as well. What is troubling to
me is the notice on the trade confirmations, which seem to
contradict at least one of your statements, namely:
"3. we acted as principal, either buying from you or selling to
you. We may have earned a profit on this transaction. Any
markup or markdown earned by us is indicated on the face of
this confirmation as a commission earned." (bold is mine)
In addition the Agreement & Conditions section states:
"The Firm may receive remuneration for directing orders to
particular broker-dealers or market centers for execution. Such
remuneration is considered compensation to the Firm, and the
source and amount of any compensation received by the firm
in connection with your transaction will be disclosed upon
request."
Statements like the above are the cause of much confusion
when reconciled against your statements on this thread (at least
for me). I take great efforts to represent matters as accurately
as possible even consulting the source of the data as I did with
regard to the NasdaqTrader site. I appreciate your further
clarification of the above statements.
Sincerely,
Jack Zahran
Charlie, if you relied on more than third hand knowledge about the subject or if you actually read the context in which these posts were made, you'd know that notices on the trade confirmations to which Jack refers to (#3) occur only when the cross transaction through ISLD is executed (C). ISLD is not a MM, it's an ECN. Anyone with L2 quotes or just looking at ISLD book can confirm that every non-marketable NASDAQ limit order entered through Datek is represented by ISLD. There is no order flow involved in these transactions and it's not even mentioned in this answer (firms actually have to pay $1 to get an execution through ISLD).
Subject: Datek Brokerage $9.95 a trade
To: Jon Normile
From: Mike
Dec 8 1997 4:58PM EST
Reply #6206 of 7253
Mr. Normile,
>Q. Is Datek Online a market making firm?
>A. No, Datek is an order entry firm. This is otherwise known
as an
>unregistered market maker.
This is double talk at best! You are not a market maker but an
unregistered market maker??
Somebody's confusion about NASD terms has nothing to do with order flow.
>Whenever Island doesn't give the best price, we take the customer's
>order directly to the market making firms.
Not so. I placed a limit order to sell above the ask and my
order went to Island as it should. The bid then moved up
through my price and stayed above it for several minutes
before falling below my limit price again.
My order did not get the representation it should have and it
cost me money. Maybe Island/Datek was designed to give the
best price to its customers, but in practice it does not. When
your automated system fails to represent our order, you should
provide us with a fill.
Mike
Whether or not Datek's automated system makes mistakes or whether ISLD works correctly every time has nothing to do with order flow.
Subject: Datek Brokerage $9.95 a
trade
To: Jon Normile
From: Mike Schoonmaker
Dec 13 1997 10:04AM EST
Reply #6228 of 7253
Jon, since I haven't been able to get a response from an e-mail
sent last week to support@datek.com, perhaps you could
answer this.
When is Datek to be supporting stops on NYSE issues? Your
FAQ page indicates that this is "forthcoming", but it seems that
other services that were "forthcoming" (like options) seem to
not even get lip service, either.
Thank you in advance,
Mike Schoonmaker
When Datek starts offering stops on NYSE stocks has nothing to do with order flow.
Subject: Datek Brokerage $9.95 a trade
To: Jon Normile
From: Slaran
Dec 15 1997 5:33PM EST
Reply #6230 of 7253
Jon Normille wrote:
>As you know, market ordes and
>marketable limit orders are processed for immediate
execution
Really? My experience is that
1) when the stock is moving up and I'm trying to buy,
marketable limit orders go from "Processing-day" to
"Live order" then to "open-day" and don't get executed as
the market has moved past me. These aren't even very
"fast" securities.
2) marketable limit orders get executed in .5 seconds when
the market is moving against me.
Not very fun.
-Slaran
The speed of Datek's executions on moving stocks has nothing to do with order flow. Also, it is a fact of life on NASDAQ that when a stock is moving and many traders try to get an execution at the same time, SOES will get backed up and some executions will be missed. There is only so much shares to trade against at a given price.
Sorry Charlie, "order flow payment" isn't mentioned or even implied in any of these posts. Whether they are negative or not is irrelevant. The first post might appear to have something to do with it to somebody that doesn't know anything about Datek's order routing. Next time you offer your opinion make sure it makes some sense. |
