Nancy, I am really horrified and sorry to hear about your experience with people who hate Jews. It must have been very scary for you, and I can see why you have such strong feelings. I have noticed some of these hate mongers on the Web when I have done research on religious topics, and they make me sick, quite frankly.
But at the same time I am pretty sure that taking away freedom of speech from any group is not a good idea. I am a little unclear on the laws, and perhaps an attorney could answer--my question is whether groups that threaten violence or foment hate on the web are subject to any freedom of speech restrictions, or does the rule apply that the authorities watch them, but cannot do anything until a crime has been committed? In other words, is freedom of speech absolute in this instance?
Giving total jerks freedom of speech is noxious to the nicer, more loving people who have to listen to them, or pointedly ignore them, but I am sure you are aware of the slippery slope we all start sliding down when freedom of speech is eroded. Really, the only people who believe the lies against Jews or any other group are people who have been taught to hate other groups of people since early childhood by ignorant, intolerant parents. So the issue is not really freedom of speech, but how to stop hatred in our society.
I think this discussion ended up over here because I wondered who Talmudic Satanists were, and this is appropriate a place for it as any other, because some of the people who post a lot at the Feelings thread were being called Satanists also, and I was very curious what was going on. Now I know!!! According to Emile, anyone who is not a Christian with exactly his belief system is a Satanist. No wonder all the Satanists did not rush to confess their sins on the new SI Satanists thread--almost everyone here is a Satanist according to Emile's definition, and yet we were all totally unaware of it!
I have been thinking about all these issues a lot lately, and have come to the conclusion that it is not what religious beliefs you choose to have--Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Shinto, Hindu, pagan or whatever--that cause problems in the world. What it is, I think, is that in most religions there are groups of very polarized conservatives within that belief system who have decided that their way is the One True Way, and that everyone else is evil, or at least lost and ignorant, who does not believe the same way. Moderates of any belief system just do not seem to foment negativity around them, because they are understanding and tolerant, and know that what they believe clearly is BELIEF, not fact, and that others have the right to believe what makes sense to them, which may be quite different.
These radical conservatives within religions are the people who cause hatred and violence in America, Northern Ireland, India, Israel and every other place where there are religious wars of some sort going on. I do not know how anyone can even argue that they are doing good in the world when their beliefs, activities and words hurt other peoples, or discriminate against people like homosexuals and agnostics or other races and cultural groups. If some posters around here are going to loosely throw labels like "Satanists!" around, I will throw in my two cents worth and say that these people who cause divisiveness, fear, pain and anguish, and most importantly, judge other people harshly, are the Satanists. So go right on over to X's Satanist thread and confess your sins or something, whoever you are, for not trying to do good in the larger world.
The issue of the Jews is a really difficult one for me, Nancy. While what happened to you and your family is absolutely inexcusable, the Zionists in Israel, which in my opinion fall into the category of polarized negativists I described in the paragraph above, have inflicted enormous pain on the Palestinians. There are a lot of Palestinians in San Francisco, where I live. In fact it seems like most of the village of Ramallah lives here now. Many of them are Christians, incidentally, although that does not have much to do with anything. They were living very peacefully on their farms, tending orchards, going to college, having babies and everything else that people anywhere do, when their property was confiscated by the Jews, and they were sent to live in what were essentially concentration camps in Jordan.
Even today in Israel, the Jews are responsible for just horrendous human rights abuses, and while these are widely reported in the world press, because of the very strong Jewish lobby in America, the news articles are buried here. And all the Jewish statesmen of Israel until Netanyahu are admitted terrorists, but they see themselves as freedom fighters because they see their position as the morally defensible one. The PLO did not exist until the Palestinians had their country ripped away from them. While I don't personally condone violence of any kind, we will have terrorists until we examine the root causes of their struggle, and somehow remove the inherent injustice. Terrorism is a natural reaction everywhere for groups who have been hurt badly and feel powerless, and feel they have no alternatives to get attention, or right the scales of justice.
The money that America spends to defend Israel, which is totally surrounded by Arab states, is astronomical. It is really almost indefensible, and is symbolically a festering wound in the region. The Palestinians can have their property confiscated arbitrarily, they are sometimes tortured when they are arrested, often on trumped up charges, and children as young as eight years old are often murdered for throwing rocks at soldiers.
Where do you stop hatred and injustice that your group received from hurting yet another group? I don't have the answer to that question, but in many ways the Jews are acting out on the Palestinians in the same way the Nazis treated them. I firmly support full human rights for Jews everywhere in the world, and I think they were treated horrendously by the Christians for hundreds of years. In fact, that is what the Pope is trying to make amends for with his recent apology. But why do they have to hurt other people? You are very concerned about the American Indians, and they are one of the groups I often cite when I talk about injustice. But really, what is the difference between them and the Palestinians, in the sense of what happened to them?
In Israel there are groups of moderate and liberal Jews who are involved in organizations that campaign for human rights for Palestinians. It is the Zionists, the really conservative Jews who believe God owes them something and who do not see that hurting people to get it is immoral, who are mostly causing the hatred and pain to continue.
The Jews in America tend to be socially liberal and highly educated. As a group they were among the first to champion the rights of black Americans in the sixties, and quite a few of them gave their lives in the civil rights struggle. I think that much of the hatred of them here comes from very, very conservative Christians who have misinterpreted the New Testament, and are very narrow and judgmental, and full of hate. As I said before, I think that is just awful. But what we seem to have is a whole bunch of fringe conservative groups all over the world hurting each other. I do not know where it started, but I wish it would end.
Really, when I think about it, I have to commend the Buddhists for the way they move very gently in the world. I will never forget the sight of Buddhist monks setting themselves on fire to protest the killing in Vietnam. They practice nonviolence, which is really the only belief system which will ever stop the endless rounds of killings as people of one belief system hurt another. I certainly don't think there is much of anything positive going on at Ask God, where people are fighting about which belief system is the right one, and calling each other names. Really, only love and respect for people who are different from you is ever going to make the earth a more peaceful place. One thing I am really, really sure of is that the teachings of Jesus--whether he was a real person or a symbolic figure in a new religion which taught love and compassion--have been terribly perverted here. I am not even a Christian, but I know in my heart that Jesus would like me, and that if there is anything like heaven I would be accepted there because I struggled to do right and decent and loving things in my life. Wouldn't it be ironic if all the Christians who practice intolerance and hatred and self-righteousness are actually on their way to Hell?
You came over here very politely, Nancy, and you are welcome any time. I am sure I have probably disagreed with you as much as I have with Emile, ideologically speaking, but I am just expressing my own personal beliefs, and not saying they are Right. I think you and Emile have should have full religious freedom to believe whatever you want, but somehow the polarization and hurt on the planet have to stop, and TOLERANCE seems to be where that starts. As I said, I have no idea how to get there from here. But I do want to tell you again how sorry I am that you have endured such personal horror.
Christine |
