steve, at least bob and and boris from mike's thread aren't hassling us... yet... ;-)
first healing. i never said you didn't believe in doctors. nor did i intend anyone to infer this. many do believe it and when they hear someone say "god heals" they view this as "therefore, doctors aren't needed." i just wanted to clarify and i'm glad we agree :-)
as for tithing, we disagree. abraham tithed once in his life. he did so after regaining plunder from people who stole lot's (his nephew) possessions. never was anybody required to tithe on regained plunder in the entirety of the bible. never. in fact, when israel plundered egypt god didn't require a tithe, he required much less. some law ;-) there is no record, nor implication nor inference nor anything, that abraham ever tithed ever than that one, solitary, single time. none. nada. why do you use abraham as an example of ongoing repeated tithing when there is no indication that abraham did this and the scriptures don't teach this? the limb your out on seems to be a little, well, weak... ;-)
btw, abraham was also circumcised. before he tithed (that one single solitary time ;-). is circumcision something that god "desires" in christians today? NOT!
if we follow abraham's example, as you cite, we should tithe only when somebody steals from us, god helps us win our retaliation campaign and we get our goods back. this is the biblical story.
jacob said he would tithe on an ongoing basis... but he did so conditionally - a vow. he said, if you (god) do this then i'll (jacob) do this.
btw, find one scripture, just one, that god gave what jacob requested and jacob actually gave a tithe. you won't find it. i'm not saying he did do it or didn't do it. i'm emphatically saying that nobody knows and to teach differently is to no longer adhere to the scriptural testimony.
IF tithing were a law, extremely callous is how jacob treated it. joseph didn't require tithing when he was ruling egypt. 80% went to pharoah and 20% went to the people. some witness ;-) oh, and jacob was right by his side and apparently never said a thing ;-) again, the clear inference is that there was no tithing law.
as an aside, tithing was a pagan practice prior to abraham's tithe. perhaps, though this is 100% conjecture, abraham and jacob were trying to show appreciation for their god in a way similar to the pagans, though they each put their individual twist on the concept. nobody knows.
a one time act by abraham and a vow (very, very different than conforming to a law) from jacob - most definitely. setting up christian tithing on these examples is beyond weak, imho.
another fact of interest that you may not have been taught. the temple tax was in effect before sinai. is that still something god wants us to follow through on? how many times have you paid the temple tax?
there's no more temple is the arguement against the temple tax. my friend, there are no more levites either ;-)
another scriptural fact that you may not have been given. money was widespread in those days. the temple tax was a half shekel and everyone had to pay it - everyone had money :-) why didn't god include money in his tithing laws. they rented oxen. they had markets. they had silver smiths. they had weavers. they mined for minerals. they built houses. yest god only required tithing on herds, flocks fruit of the vine, etc...
show me one example were god tells people to tithe on money the way you say god does. one example will suffice. if you can't provide one single scriptural example, where god clearly REQUIRES a tithe of money, then admit you can't.
as for the new testament... the pharisee mentions tithes of mint, cummin and the like. no money here, though money was in widespread use - just as it was thousands of years earlier. remember that the pharisee was required to keep the entire old covenant, including tithing, when this exchange occurred. of course jesus affirmed an old covenant pharisee keeping the old covenant. does this prove tithing in the new testament? me thunks not. jesus also affirmed physical sacrifices for those under the old covenant. sacrifices anybody???? didn't think so...
the rich man said he gave a tithe of all. if he meant money then he did so of his own volition - not according to god's requirement as laid out in the scripture because their is no such requirement. perhaps it was understood that he meant livestock, fruits, vegetables and the like because the tithing laws were understood. he may have been a rich farmer. i don't know.
nowhere is a tithe recorded in the new testament church of converted christians. they were taught to give and share - most definitely. to say that they were ever required a tithe is 100% unsupportable by any scriptures.
please show me a converted christian giving, collecting, transporting, spending, storing or doing anything else with a tithe in the new testament. i know you can't do it. it isn't there. there are dozens of scriptures dealing with freewill offerings (the true method of new covenant giving). dozens. not one reference to tithing, though.
i am not anti-giving. on the contrary, one of my main goals in life is to be as generous as i can. i'm just reporting what the scriptures say - not popular interpretations (made popular by those that receive the money, btw ;-) not everybody, but many.
we should be as generous as we can be - to family, christians, the needy, the downtrodden and everyone else - whether we like them or not. after all, anybody feels good giving to friends...
the bible does not teach new testament tithing. not even close. i hope this clears up why this is true.
good luck... |
