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Pastimes : Ask God
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To: Robert E. Hall who wrote (19807)7/31/1998 6:52:00 PM
From: Robert Rice  Read Replies (3) of 39621
 
ALL<

Here a lil fodder for the discussion.................

It seems that with the considerable cussing and
discussing that goes on in this forum there is a decided
lack of documented facts regarding the Christian position. I
will attempt to alleviate that by taking point by point the
atheist position and discussing it using as much verifiable
material as I can. I will further attempt to clarify peoples
primary objections to the Christian position so as to
further on topic discussions of facts and hopefully
minimize the personal insults and foul language that
characterize this forum. I'm sure I will miss some things
and hope all of you out there take a positive attitude in
pointing these omissions out to me as I have limited time
and resources I will make mistakes.
Now with that said let's proceed. I will attempt to
outline the atheist position as I have seen it in this
forum.

Point 1- God is made up by men and their is no
empirical evidence to support his/her existence.

Point 2 -The Bible is a flawed and manipulated document
that has little reflection on what Jesus really said or did.

Point 3-There is no third party evidence to support
Jesus existence or any of his perceived miracles.

Point 4-Christians as a lot are liars at worst and
deceived simpletons at best.

Now as far as I can tell that about covers all the
bases so I will begin with Point one and post the others as
I get them done.

God was created by man and there is no empirical evidence to
support his/her existence. That is a powerful statement and
a legitiment complaint for someone who is truly seeking and
an excellent pat answer for someone who is not. Random house
dictionary describes empirical as derived from or depending
upon experiment or experience alone. So given that
definition proving God existence should be relatively simply
I experience God therefore God exists. Of course that is not
a satisfactory answer to those who have not "experienced
God" so I will concentrate more on the other facets.
My first of objection to Godless creation of the
universe would be that it defies our basic Universal laws of
Physics in several areas!

The First Law of Thermodynamics(Law of energy conservation)
:
States that energy is neither created or destroyed so
therefor the universe did not create itself so what was the
ultimate cause.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics(Law of Energy Decay) :
States that left to it's own devices every system tends to
move towards disorder. Well now how could we have this fine
Universe and nothing to create the order of it ?

So the Second Law requires the Universe to have had a
beginning. The First Law precludes it from starting itself
so we are left with a bit of a paradox.

Evolution as a creation vehicle for species would again defy
the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Of course the pat answer
always has been the 2nd law doesn't apply to living things.
Almost all Scientist however disagree (the key might be the
word universal law)
"No matter how carefully we examine the energetics of
living systems we find no evidence of defeat of the
thermodynamic principals, but we do encounter a degree of
complexity not witnessed in the living world ...J.H. Rush
" The Dawn of Life"
Signet ,1962 pg.35
The second most common response in my experience is"
Well it doesn't apply to open systems. If there is enough
energy reaching the Earth from the sun to more than offset
the loss of energy due to entropy the problem is irrelevant"
. I am afraid not it is not a question of quantity of energy
but of conversion of energy ,the real question should be how
does the suns energy sustain evolution according to the laws
of thermodynamics it doesn't'!
I will leave Point one with a quote from Mr. Asimov
"We don't know all that is happening in the Universe. The
changes we do observe are all in the direction of increasing
entropy. Somewhere though ,there may changes under unusual
conditions that we can't study yet which are in the
direction of decreasing entropy........Isaac Asimov, "Can
Decreasing Entropy Exist in the Universe?" Science Digest 5-
73 pg. 76
So according to Mr. Asimov if only we could change the
rules of the universe then we might see things build up
instead of down. I think not from all we know this a
universe uniformity in structure and In those Nasty Laws of
Thermodynamics.
The rest of the points will be posted when I have
enough time and research invested in them . I hope this
spurs discussion.
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