Wow. I have to say, I appreciate your prompt response and consideration. Two over riding comments on my part. 1) You appear to have drawn a line in the sand and will take a side against any issue presented on behalf of Muslims. 2) I have to give you credit for having some consideration in principle for justice on behalf of innocent people.
You insist that I have some affinity for Saddam because I am a Muslim. I always get this when I make a presentation on the part of innocent villagers of the middle east. I made my view of the man clear. I despise him. If you want to be a broken CNN record feel free. It doesn't advance understanding or what ever cause you are defending.
<<just pointing out that moslems have much more to fear from moslems than from the west. i apologize if you take exception to that.>>
I don't. You are right in some respects. You are naive in others. Its not that simple.
<<I have read accounts of women from philipines, sri lanka, bangladesh being kept as "concubines" (and essentially slaves). if they ever get impregnated by their "masters" they are stoned under the draconian (moslem?) laws.>> You must read those extreme anti-muslim web pages. Get some comic books if you like fiction.
Saudis are rich. They are able to afford to hire servants. But they have to import them. Slavery was forbidden in Islam as commanded by God over 1400 yrs ago. Slaves were freed and Muslims who had house servants were advised to marry them if they could not be just sent along their way. As you know Muslims are allowed to have more than one wife. Slavery, and prostitution is forbidden. It is very likely that the servants are becoming members of the household. Islamic punishment of the participants in adultery is to be meeted out in equal measure. Your description gives the impression of something that is culturally pervasive or commonly accepted (whoops).
<<if they ever get impregnated by their "masters" they are stoned under the draconian (moslem?) laws.>> I would not be surprised by any kind of atrocity in the modern world. There are half way house shelters on about every corner of my community, how about yours? I don't see them in the middle east and I don't see the need for them. Like I said, I've been to Saudi and seen a lot of the life. I did not witness anything akin to what you describe. The hired servants generally are very kind and peaceable people and a joy to be around. They appreciate the oppertunity to travel in the holy lands of Saudi. The life is free from intoxication and the kinds of freedom to abuse ourselves and others that are accepted here. Of course from your western perspective and mine the life style is too restrictive for comfort. That is a separate issue.
<<If they get rid of Soddem, things would go north for them. At some point they will stop supporting that (kord and shiite) baby killing ogre(i know that my "name calling" annoys you, but the fact is that truth barbs!).>>
Suni Muslims are the ruling class in Iraq. Saddam has built a long standing regime from his tribal position as well as the Suni Muslim political force. Shiite Muslims are seen as a threat by Saddam. So are Kurds. He has been exterminating them for years. If he could have done what Clinton has done with the sanctions he would have done it him self. His people???? typical sheesh! Your bubba bill is killing them, they are not Saddam's people, and there is no reason to give him any responsibility for their deaths. Unless you consider him a benevolent dictator of Kurd and Shiite tribes within the borders he controls. There is no powerful group that would have any chance in overthrowing his regime (clinton killed them all), at least not internally. If you could do away with Saddam the regime would retain power and you would likely find one of his cousins or at least someone from the same politic assuming power.
<<At some point they will stop supporting that (kord and shiite) baby killing ogre(i know that my "name calling" annoys you, but the fact is that truth barbs!).>>
I feel the same way. That's one of the reasons I was in support of the impeachment of the lying ogre, murdering, power drunk, rapist occupying the oval office. Grand investigation chaa right, common sense would've done the trick if he didn't have his fist so deep in your pocket. Nice economy we're having today, don't you agree. Keep going along, as you like.
<<yes there is a possibility of a terrorist attack on the US. how does that germane to the present discussion?>> I have traveled and seen the world dynamically and dramatically changing. There is an awakening and a global awareness of injustice. I talked to a young Turk last year. He told me that in Turkey as a child he used to see one or two weird old men venturing into run down Mosques to pray. Now they are all filled up with vibrant young people. They are not out of it like those old men. They are very concerned with justice on a global scale. This story is being repeated in all corners of the Earth these days. The US has been invited to intervene in international affairs for many years for its objectivity, its willingness to stand on principle for justice and freedom. Our build up to superpowerdom was supported by countries around the world for these reasons. Much of that is being questioned now. A few years ago very few Muslim groups were willing to criticize our policies and actions. Many Muslim and non-Muslim nations are speaking out in unison about unjustice at the hands of the US military. We are seen as an unprincipled, egotistical bully bent on having our piece of everyone elses pie. The citizens are so pleased with our current economy and so drunk with world power that its hard to see anything disrupting that. Say, your kid doesn't really need that nickle for his milk today does he. Its getting more and more likely that some other kid will take it from him, with little or not consequence.
<<yeup. that's why we had a BROAD UN mandate for the gulf war!>>
Yep, and we won that just war. A decade later and hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths, what have we accomplished? Where is the UN mandate to kill these innocent villagers? What is your point?
Suddenly Kosovo happens and the pentagon announces Iraq cured. Shuut if thats all it takes why didn't we declare victory and leave a long time ago?
<<<<+Saddam gassed his own people. Didn't our government also do that at
WACO?
>>>>
<<The former was/IS the official policy of that government. the latter is an isolated ACCIDENT! >>
Does our country have a policy to quell armed insurrection? I think so. Doesn't every country? The way this "accident" was being billed sure looked that way to me. I agree with you that the black hats and white hats are more official in dictatorships. We tend to take a nationalistic view at the color of hats, as opposed to an religio/ethnic view but there are some exceptions. Generally when I mention Islam, people equate that with a geo-political definition before principles and practices of worshipping God's peace.
<<so what do we do? sit in a nuclear/chemical warfare shelter or just sit in our basement? Anything else would be deemed "interventionist" by you...>>
I think we should do everything we can short of perpetrating injustice ourselves in the process. God gave you a mind and resources to use it. On the other hand, nice economy we're having today. So, you don't have to struggle for justice. You can keep going along with the comfortable status quo. Fogettabottit.
<<we've made an example outta iraq and now serbia. next time, just the threat should be sufficient!>>
We're making an example alright but at this point, its more about us than them. The times they are a changin' pal. You might want to consider the lyrics "stop now, what's that sound, every body look whats goin round." There is a man with a gun over there....are you absolutely sure he is on your side. What about your children's, children's, children? The success of our constitution depends on its ability to manifest justice in the land for all citizens individually and enmass and in our ability to present that agenda to the world at large. How do you think we've done over the last couple of years at advancing that premise? I don't think my kids will have much of a chance if they get caught up in a dispute with the elite and powerful in this country. I didn't feel that way a few years ago.
<<<< Who will be next that we bomb after Sudan and Afghanistan, Iran?>>>>
<<we'll c when the time comes...>>
That about raps it up. |
