You:Neocon it is not Russian history...Strong Man is supported, weak/intelectual oriented
killed
Me:True, but the strong man is Lebed, and he is not so bad...
Y:That is why he can't succeed unless he gets "tougher" meaning Fear, Killing, Terror
M:I think that Lebed is smart, and wants to develop the country, he is just suspicious of
full democracy, is concerned with easing the transition to capitalism, and dislikes being
humbled in world affairs. But who does he really want to run the country? Smart guys
who know something about finance, or Zhirinovsky's followers? I think he could end up
saving any chance of reform....
Y:I think that Lebed is smart,>>>
Can he deliver Food, can he deliver Pride? Is he God?
Remember it is Russia we are talking about...Russia was controlled by Fear and
Terror..and will be again..
M:Even Russia can change... some:-)...
Y:Even Russia can change... some:-)...>>>
What is the evidence? :( This is opinion of faith, not based in history
M:Because everything changes. Athenians no longer debate virtue in the agora, Romans
no longer have gladiatorial contests, gentlemen no longer wear knee breeches and
powdered wigs, and Russians have not been serfs for over a century...
Y:Vodka? did it change in Russia? (except for quality)
M:Okay, and they still eat lamb in Salonika, but things like mass education and (relative)
affluence have to make a difference, unless you are a racist, and believe it is in the Russian
blood...
Y:unless you are a racist, and believe it
is in the Russian blood...>>>
Give me a break, racist? Have you ever heard about Alcoholism? Genetic Disease?
M:I don't know about the propensity to alcoholism, I was referring to your belief that
Russians were doomed to dictatorship....
Y:I was referring to your belief that
Russians were doomed to dictatorship....>>
How is this belief based on history and shared by most intelectuals, Russian including can
be conscrued as Racist?
M:goldsnow, what I mean is that you seem unwilling to concede that the social changes
that have ensued since the Emancipation of the serfs may make history an unreliable guide.
Therefore, you seem to be saying that they are beyond the reach of culture, and a matter
of blood. When you attribute socially relevant traits to genetics to such a great degree, and
suppose that the characteristics belong to a rather large group of people, that is generally
called racism...
Y:Therefore, you seem to be saying that they are beyond the reach of culture, and a
matter of blood.>>>
Russian culture is one of the most profound and Russian language is absolutely
magnificient in expressing it....How is that connected to the historic forces that made
Balkans what it is or Russia what it is or Africa what it is ?
M:As I said earlier, some things change over time, and processes like education make a
difference, and make statements about the age- old Russian character inappropriate. I also
specifically pointed to the fact that the Russian people are over a century past
Emancipation, and therefore have had more than three generations to get used to
improved conditions...
Y:some things change over time>>
Over very, very long time....Please travel along Volga River....Time is frozen, nothing
absolutely nothing changed ..Your statement to the contrary is just mis-informed
M:Whether of not the Volga river has changed course has absolutely no bearing on
whether or not Russia can finally emerge from bloody autocracy.Nor is it true that social
change is glacially slow. It is certainly slower than many liberals acknowledge, and subject
to more variables than can be closely controlled. But observable historical processes tell us
that many things change over 50 years, many more over 100, and so on...As I said, the
garb that was standard for gentlemen at the time of the Revolution has not only ceased to
be customary, but is in disfavor. In Russia, the masses are over a century from serfdom,
have been exposed to nearly universal education, are part of the global culture of mass
media, have been experiencing the common trends of industrialization and urbanization,
and in other ways are a "Volga" already flowing through a much altered channel....
Y:Allow for few more "racist" commentaries about Russia from BBC
No civil society
But these are still feeble growths - and are far from
certain to survive long into the next millennium.
Elsewhere the gloom is deepening fast. And at its heart
is a gulf between state and citizen that stretches
yawningly wide.
There is no civil society in Russia - no real sense in
which ordinary people feel they can participate in and
influence the course of events.
M:goldsnow--- Now that is an argument I can buy, but it still doesn't amount to an
argument that only terror can rule in Russia, merely that they may have to go through an
authoritarian period, which is not quite the same...
Y:but it still doesn't amount to an
argument that only terror can rule in Russia>>>
That is an argument. Very valid one.
M:To say that the people may not be ready for full democratic participation is not the
same as saying that they will only respond to the knout...I can't believe you are trying to
justify the worst kind of despotism as a cure for the "Russian problem"...
Y:Did I say justify? When?
My farther spend 16 years under Stalin in GULAG ..
You have no idea what Russia is like...
M:goldsnow, I figured that something like that would be true, but when you are so
pessimistic, it is the same kind of argument the despots use to justify strong- man rule...
Y:Believe me people who think that very opressive regime is going to take over (myself
including) do not try to justify anything, on contrary ry to warn bozo's ike Clinton's crowd,
they see trees but not forest
M:goldsnow--- so your focus is on the danger to peace in Europe and to the United
States? That doesn't seem so bad, of course. I just don't see why slandering the Russian
people, who suffer the most misery, is necessary to make the point...
Y:why slandering the Russian
people, who suffer the most misery, is necessary to make the point...>>
Drop it. You want politically correct language listen to public officials-they say same..but
in diplomatic language,,Please, Provide an exampe of slander from any posts that I have
posted to you so I understand what you are driving at...
THIS IS A RECORD OF OUR EXCHANGES ON THE MATTER, WITH A MINOR
OMISSION OF A DIGRESSION. IF I WERE MISTAKEN, I APOLOGIZE, BUT IT
SEEMED TO ME THAT YOU WERE SAYING THAT RUSSIA WAS
UNGOVERNABLE EXCEPT THROUGH TERROR.... |
