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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Chris land who wrote (25765)	6/11/1999 6:21:00 AM
From: nihil	Respond to of 39621

"I think that if people are unwilling to defend the country they live in then that country has no obligation to treat them as rightfull, respectable citizens. The scriptures teach that unless the children of Israel were willing to fight to possess the promised land they would have gotten nothing. " Chris Please Chris, work on your spelling and you Christian pacifism. Only one misspelled word this time. That's an improvement. Keep it up. The United States is not ancient Israel, and we have no need to imitate it. Did you enjoy the story reporting one B-52 killing thousands of Serbs with cluster bombs? I didn't. It sounded like gloating to me. As a war veteran, I would have been perfectly willing to fight for conscientious objectors (many of whom served along Marines as unarmed Navy Medical Corpsmen). I would have been uncomfortable killing Chinese and North Koreans, and I'm glad I wasn't ordered to kill anyone. I probably would have. I lacked the courage to refuse induction. I am sure the world would be much better if everyone had the courage to refuse to fight as Witnesses do. Refusal to kill is a categorical imperative. Especially for Christians. I am not at all sure in reality, that the world is better off when most are willing to kill on command while a few refuse to kill. I think they represent an important principle. I think the world is better for their failed message. I think their blood, like Jesus's, is a sacrifice for the good of all of us. I do not think Witnesses are divinely inspired. I don't think Jesus was the Christ or Divine. I think their sacrifice for principle is just as valid as if they were.

To: Chris land who wrote (25765)	6/11/1999 8:25:00 AM
From: mark silvers	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Chris, <<I think that if people are unwilling to defend the country they live in then that country has no obligation to treat them as rightfull, respectable citizens. >> I fully realize that this may be wishful thinking, but what if all people of all nations became unwilling to take up arms against others for any reason. No political wars, no religious wars, no wars based on material greed. Could anything make God happier? Is it not a dream that is worth pursuing, regardless of the seemingly insurmountable odds? Muhhamad ALI(a personal hero of mine) refused to take up arms based on his religious convictions. He is now regarded(by many) as being truly brave and spiritual for taking that stand in the face of adversity, and giving up millions of dollars and the prime of his career in the process. Imagine what the world be like if everyone took that stand? Mark

To: Chris land who wrote (25765)	6/11/1999 8:41:00 AM
From: Brumar89	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Dear Chris, You posted that Charles Russell was found guilty of perjury. Can you elaborate and tell us what the perjury was in relation to - was he charged with another crime, was it in a civil case involving some business dealings, or what? You also said he was a conman - do you mean he was a conman because he taught religious teachings which you believe to be wrong or was he a "real" conman - i.e. one who swindles unwitting people out of their savings to pay for home repairs or something or did he market shady investments or timeshare condos (perhaps he was an earlier generation's Jim Bakker) - can you elaborate on what cons he employed? These aren't loaded questions and I am not trying to start an argument about Russell - I sincerely know nothing of this fellow, but am wondering if you know whether he was involved in actual criminal activity? Also do you have source so, if interested, your readers can explore further? On the subject of pacifists' citizenship, I disagree with you, but that's just my opinion. I'm definitely not a pacifist myself either. I wonder what you make of Jesus's teachings that his followers should turn the other cheek, be meek and humble and soft-spoken, bless those who persecute them, and etc.? Did he not really mean what he taught? What's your opinion? Personally, I respect those groups (like Quakers, JW's, Mennonites, Amish, etc.) who try to actually practice what Jesus taught, even though I don't have the nature or sufficient spirituality to be that way myself. Bruce

To: Chris land who wrote (25765)	6/11/1999 2:49:00 PM
From: Don Martini	Respond to of 39621

Chris, you wrote: <<I think that if people are unwilling to defend the country they live in then that country has no obligation to treat them as rightful respectable citizens>> There is a way which seemeth right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death Prov 14:12 "A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius, [Roman emperor from 161-180AD] no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian remained in military service." THE RISE OF CHRISTIANITY PG 333 E W BARNES, London 1947 On the other hand, Chris, Hitler, Stalin and Hussain agree with you. Said Jesus: By this all will know that you are my disciples, that you have love among yourselves Can't do it with an M16! Narrow is the gate and straightened the way that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it. Put your sword into its sheath, for all those that take the sword shall perish by the sword The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but powerful by God: [Shield of Faith, Sword of the Spirit, Helmet of Salvation, Feet shod with the equipment of the good news of peace, Breastplate of Righteousness.] Do you think these divine injunctions meaningless, Chris? DRM