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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: greenspirit who wrote (40836)6/19/1999 3:01:00 AM
From: jpmac  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
Jefferson considered Jesus to be a historical figure but the virgin birth, the miracles, the resurrection, etc. to be myth on par with Minerva. He abhored Paul as a corrupter of the historical Jesus' message. He called himself a "materialist" above all, not a Christian. Do you think he is talking of god in the same manner as you?

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies" (Letter to Dr. Woods from Thomas Jefferson)

John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, 1817:
"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it.

T.J:

"I was glad to find in your book a formal contradiction at length of the judiciary usurpation of legislative powers; for
such the judges have usurped in their repeated decisions, that Christianity is a part of the common law. The proof of
the contrary which you have adduced is incontrovertible; to wit, that the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons
were yet Pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a
character had ever existed. But it may amuse you to show when and by what means they stole the law in upon us. In a
case of quare impedit in the Year Book 34 H. 6, folio 38, (anno 1458,) a question was made, how far the ecclesiastical
law was to be respected in a common law court. And Prisot, Chief Justice, gives his opinion in these words: 'A tiel leis
qu'ils de seint eglise ont en ancien scripture covient a nous a donner credence,' etc. See S.C. Fitzh. Abr. Qu. imp. 89.
Bro.; Abr. Qu. imp. 12.

Finch, in his first book, c. 3 is the first afterwards who quotes this case, and mistakes it thus: 'To such laws of the
church as have warrant in Holy Scripture our law giveth credence;' and cites Prisot, mistranslating 'ancien scripture'
into 'Holy Scripture.' Whereas Prisot palpably says 'To such laws as those of holy church have in ancient writing it is
proper for us to give credence;' to wit, to their ancient written laws. This was in 1613, a century and a half after the
dictum of Prisot. Wingate, in 1658, erects this false translation into a maxim of common law, copying the words of
Finch, but citing Prisot. Wing, Max. 3. And Sheppard, title 'Religion,' in 1675, copies the same mistranslation, quoting
the Y.B. Finch and Wingate. Hale expresses it in these words: 'Christianity is parcel of the laws of England.' 1 Ventr.
293. 3 Keb. 607. But he quotes no authority. By these echoings and reechoings from one to another it had become so
established in 1728 that, in case the King vs. Woolston, 2 Stra. 834, the court would not suffer it to be debated,
whether to write against Christianity was punishable in the temporal courts at common law. Wood, therefore, 409,
ventures still to vary the phrase, and say that all blasphemy and profaneness are offenses by the common law, and
cites 2 Stra. Then Blackstone, in 1763, 4.59, repeats the words of Hale, that 'Christianity is part of laws of England,'
citing Ventris and Strange. And finally, Lord Mansfield, with a little qualification in Evans's case, in 1767, says that
'the essential principles of revealed religion are part of the common law.' Thus engulfing Bible, Testament, and all, into
the common law, without citing any authority. And thus we find this chain of authorities hanging link by link, one upon
another, and all ultimately on one and the same book, and that a mistranslation of the words 'ancien scripture' used by
Prisot.

Finch quotes Prisot; Wingate does the same. Sheppard quotes Prisot, Finch, and Wingate. Hale cites nobody. The
court in Woolston's case cites Hale. Wood cites Woolston's case. Blackstone quotes Woolston's case and Hale. And
Lord Mansfield, like Hale, ventures on his own authority. Here I might defy the best read lawyer to produce another
scrip of authority for this judiciary forgery; and I might go on further to show how some of they Anglo-Saxon priests
interpolated into the texts of Alfred's laws 20th, 21st, 22d, and 23d chapters of Exodus, and the 15th of the Acts of the
Apostles, from the 23d to the 29th verse. But this would lead my pen and your patience too far. What a conspiracy this
between church and state! Sing Tantarara, rogues all, rogues all!" (Works, Vol. iv., pp. 397, 398).



To: greenspirit who wrote (40836)6/19/1999 3:40:00 AM
From: epicure  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 108807
 
Have you actually read the Constitution? It supports my position not yours. I propose you read it in its entirety and get back to me on just exactly WHERE you find the words "God" or "Christian" in it. I will await your post with interest.

The Declaration of Independence is not an article of governance - it was a statement and a document of a specific time. The framers wisely (I think) made the Constitution religion neutral. The Declaration of Independence was a more populist document, and its phraseology did not have to be parsed out as carefully since it was in no way binding on successive generations in any legal way- as an article of the Constitution would be.

You are a naive and reactionary individual. A sad combination in one who has some modicom of intelligence.

>There is also a fallacy in thinking that religion can be removed from all events and that
the results will be a benign neutrality. Since nature abhors a vacuum, the religions of
moral relativism and secular humanism will simply replace the religions that were
expelled.<

No one wants to remove religion from all events. No one suggests this. Since most families claim to be religious I do not see how this will be accomplished. I have read wonderful accounts of many religions in this country I would not wish to see any of these histories expunged, nor do I belive they will be. Let me recommend the book "Mormon Country" by Wallace Stegner to you (available in highschool libraries, btw)- I recently read it and found it fascinating. The history of Jews in this country is fascinating also. I've read some terrific books by former orthodox Jews- and at some point I intend to read the Kabbala, which has been mentioned in several of the books I've read. I am not familiar with it. At the moment I am reading the "Tao Teh Ching" and "The Essential Rumi"as well as "Moo" so I can't pick it up right away. And then I have to read "Midnight's Children" for my book group.

There is nothing value neutral about leaving people alone to make up their own minds- this allows people to choose their own religions, whatever they may be. I know that is distressing for control freaks- but our Constitution was written to keep control freaks at bay. frustrating I know.

Secular humanism doesn't uproot other religions- if it did we surely wouldn't have so many religious people running around would we? The majority of people are religious- probably not exactly like you- but they call themselves religious. The people who need to be protected are the agnostics and atheists who don't belong to big groups with big agendas that like to fuss about how everyone is out to get them. People really ARE out to get atheists and agnostics (frequently) but because they aren't joiners there isn't a protective group to fall back on, and the paranoid religious fanatics aren't very sensitive to REAL persecution, only to imagined persecution. Which I find fascinating- in a snake eating mouse sort of way.

Your paranoia would be humorous if it wasn't dangerous. People who want the whole country to be like them, so they won't have to fear what is different, is NOT what this country is about. This country is about religious toleration. This country was founded by people who knew what it was like to have fanatics (both Catholic and Protestant) in charge of a country- namely England. I hope you know a bit about that. If not, read up.

We haven't always been what we should be (witness the persecution of teh Quakers, the Mormons, the Jews and many many others) but at least we try. It requires no "redefining" of our cultural heritage to support the Constitution and the separation of church and state. That IS part of our cultural heritage. Of course there are plenty of Christians in our cultural heritage- Catholics, Deists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Calvinists, Quakers, Shakers, Menonites, 7th Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, geez- I could just go on and on. Then there are the other elements of our cultural heritage, some still extant, some not- Jewish, Mormon, Buddhist, myriad African religions, Native American religions, Hindu, Muslim, Black Muslim, Unitarian- and all those other ones I've forgotten, and even the Atheists, and the agnostics- they all contribute to the cultural heritage. It isn't as if it is one strand you can pluck out and say, Ahhhh, here it is - THE cultural heritage strand. It is so many threads, and so intertwined, if you pull one a bunch of others are going to come with it.

Toleration is scary for intolerant people, I understand that, but tough. That is why our Constitution protects the minority (whoever they are) from the tyranny of the intolerant. Read the Constitution and get some help with your paranoia.



To: greenspirit who wrote (40836)6/19/1999 11:43:00 AM
From: Ilaine  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
Why do you keep saying Judeo-Christian, and then exclude Jews?